How Bad can one be IN the kingdom of heaven?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, Jan 11, 2011.

  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    Mt. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    We are not talking about ENTERING the kingdom of heaven but those already IN the kingdom of heaven.

    My Questions:

    1. Can you be DISOBEDIENT in the kingdom of heaven without being cast out?

    2. Does disobedience determine ENTRANCE into the kingdom of heaven or only POSITION and RANK in the kingdom of heaven?
     
  2. glfredrick

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    I've asked a similar question, worded as follows:

    "Will God allow a person into His perfect eternity who, by the power of his or her will, repeats the sin of Adam?"

    I see that question as the fatal blow to any theology more human-centered than Infralapsarian.
     
  3. mets65

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    I always believed this to be saying, whoever keeps these commandments on earth shall be called great when we get to heaven. I mean we are to be rewarded for our faith on earth correct? I don't think you'll be able to repeat the sin of Adam in heaven, I believe there will be no sinful desire because Satan will be defeated and cast into the lake of fire.
     
  4. Dr. Walter

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    Matthew 5:19 and difference of obedience IN the kingdom is placed squarely beside Matthew 5:20 and what righteousness is required to ENTER the kingdom. It takes a sinless righteousness to ENTER the kingdom, which can only be satisifed by Christ's life for us. However, all who are justified by faith in Christ alone are IN the kingdom and our works determine only differences between saved people in heaven.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    Hint - you do not enter the kingdom of heaven by choosing stubborn rebellion

    1 Corinthians 7:19
    Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.


    Rom 3:31 NASB
    "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law" Rom 3:31 NASB

    The Post-cross teaching of the apostles CONTINUES to support that importance of God’s Word – God’s Commandments – and obedience rather than rebellion.

    I Jn 5:2-3
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Rev 12:17
    17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev 14:12
    12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Rev 22:14
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    I Jn 2:3-4
    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



    Rom 6
    1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
    2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
    3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
    4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
    6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
    7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

    8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
    9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


    10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
    11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
    12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
    13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
    13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


    14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
    15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
    16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
    17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
    became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
    18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. glfredrick

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    There was no "sinful desire" in Adam either. He was created pure, a free man, who actually walked in the presence of God like we will one day once glorified in eternity.

    There are two things here, not just one. There is our sinful desire, which comes to all men as a result of the curse of Genesis 3, and there is Satan, who entices us to sin. We truly have a free choice IF we are free men and not slaves to sin as we are now, and so, will God select any for His eternity who will make the same choice as Adam who was also a free man, not a slave to sin?
     
  7. Dr. Walter

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    You are confusing "ENTER" with "IN". To ENTER requires righteousness equal to God's. Therefore nothing you do obtains ENTRANCE and therefore nothing you continue to do AFTER entering and thus already IN ever will determine ENTRANCE but only POSITION or REWARDS. Hence, I don deny Christians ought to obey the Lord's revealed will in and for their lives but the issue is what is obtained by such obedience or disobedience by true children of God.

     
    #7 Dr. Walter, Jan 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 12, 2011
  8. mets65

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    Until Adam ate the fruit of the tree he had no sinful desire correct? Would God put such a tree in heaven? Will he forbid us from anything in heaven? I believe there will be no such thing as sin in heaven.
     
  9. glfredrick

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    Adam, pre-fall, was also pre-sin nature. It was not until he actually rebelled against God that he did indeed sin. In other words, Adam had a choice.

    We, however, do not have a choice. We are born under the curse of God. We are born with a sin nature, hence, it is not our "actions" (or lack thereof) that cause us to become sinners, it is our "position" by birth to which we add the actions of sinful behavior, thought, etc.

    That is what is the "big deal" about Christ giving us a "re-birth." We are made new creatures, free men once again, by the imputed righteousness and forensic justification of Christ on our behalf.

    Essentially, as positional sinners, we can do nothing at all to "earn" merit from God. We cannot "choose" God. We cannot "please" God. We cannot "do" enough (or anything) that would cause our "position" to change. That requires death.

    But, praise God, that death came by His Son, Jesus. Jesus did not die as an "example" or as a "savior" who merely points the way for us to grasp onto and be pulled with Him to eternity. Rather, He satisfied the death penalty for our sin -- becoming our sin -- and in exchange gave us His righteousness. This righteousness was "imputed" to us by a supernatural act of God. We did not merit or earn it. We can not access it by faith or otherwise. It is a gift of God for God's elect, those written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

    As long as we continue to think that we, somehow, can come to God on some (any!) merit of our own, including faith, we miss the point of the Scriptures that proclaim that we cannot come to God unless God makes it possible. Therefore, both Calvinism and Arminianism (and any derivative thereof) all see God's grace as foremost in the process of becoming a "Christian" -- born again from above, justified, adopted, etc.
     
  10. billwald

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    >Until Adam ate the fruit of the tree he had no sinful desire correct?

    Eating the apple WAS the sin.
     
  11. mets65

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    None of us can make it through a day without sinning. If Adam made it that far, he couldn't have had a sinful desire.
     
  12. glfredrick

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    First, we don't know that it was an apple. That line comes from Milton's poem, not Scripture.

    Second, the sin was not an act, like eating. It was rebellion, which didn't even take a physical act to complete. Recall what Jesus had to say in His Sermon on the Mount.

    But yes, it would be safe to say that Adam was not born with sinful desires. At what point he entertained a sinful desire is left open, but we know that he fulfilled a sinful desire when he intentionally did something in direct opposition to a command of God.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    The Bible says -

    Now given the 8 chapters above - we have this question asked.

    In Bible point point 1 above (1cor 7:19) Paul says it DOES matter whether you keep the Commandments - the paragraph above appears to argue it does not.

    In Bible point 2. above Paul says our Faith as Christians establishes the Law of God - but the para above seems to argue that -- no our faith may not do any such thing.

    continued --
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Continued from the previous post ----

    In Bible point 3. above Jesus says that the saints - those who Love Jesus are to Keep His commandments. (In Matt 7 Jesus said that those who hear His Words and do them are like the one building his house on a Rock). But the para above seems to argue that building on sand might do just as well - or at least not be a big problem.

    In Bible points 4. 5. and 6. above the Bible says that the saints are known for Keeping God's commandments (reminds us of 1Cor 7:19) but the para above seems to argue that the saints may not be known for this at all - but they are saints all the same.

    In Bible point 7. above the Bible says that the one claiming to be a saint - and yet does not keep the Commandments - is not telling the truth. The para above seems to claim "oh yes they are telling the truth they just have problems".

    In Bible point 8. above Paul is arguing that you are the servant of Christ or the servant of sin depending on who you serve. The para above seems to argue that you are the servant of Christ no matter if you are the servant of sin or not.

    -----

    Now for the sake of argument - let us say that the Bible is right in those cases and Walter's paragraph that seems to argue that none of that is true - is in fact false.

    (Just suppose).

    In that case - does it not appear to be the case that the smooth-sayings for the itching ears is coming in the form - "pay no attention to these Bible warnings for you will be saved anyway". And In that case - could it not be said that such a sermon is problematic?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Dr. Walter

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    You flood each post with so many scriptures (TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT) and then simply repeat the massive amount of scriptures for each post. This makes any reasonable discussion impossible. If you would take one or two scriptuers at a time then a reasonable discussion could take place.

    As you admit 1 Cor. 7:19 deals with circumcison. However, circumcision is only beneficial UNDER LAW if you keep every other commandment of the law. It is no benefit to boast in circumcision unless also you are keeping all the commandments of God. This brings all boasting to a complete stop as NO FLESH has been or is capable of obeying all the commandments of God.

    Romans 3:31 is part of the BOASTING context that begins with Romans 3:27 and continues into Romans 4:22. Paul begins this BOASTING context by asking whapt principle of justification allows for boasting - the principle of justification by faith or the principle of justificaiton by works of the Law? He concludes that justification by the works of the law promotes boasting because it is inclusive of what the one being justified DOES! However, in contrast justification by faith as previously outlined in Romans 3:23-26 excludes anything the justified DOES but includes only what God has provided in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. It is what God DOES in the Person of Jesus Christ that SATIFIES His righteous standards. Hence, justification by faith does not oppose the Law of God but it is the only possible way to vindicate or SATISFY the Law of God and its demands against sinners. It removes all boasting because justifying faith simply embraces what Christ DID rather than includes what we DO (Rom. 4:1-5) and therefore it is a justification by faith "WITHOUT WORKS" (Rom. 4:5-6).
     
  16. Dr. Walter

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    That is precisely what you are teaching - building on sand! When you make the motive for keeping commandments entrance into heaven instead of love for Christ and salvation obtained then you are teaching a doctrine of "sand."


    No one denies that Christians are "known" by their works but that is not the issue between us. You are not arguing Christians are "known" by their work but rather works are necessary to obtain entrance into heaven.

    Before John says this, he also says that any professed believer who denies they are without present tense sin is a liar as well. Hence, there is no Christian who lives a sinless life (1 Jn. 1:8-10). If there were then 1 Jn. 2:1-2 would be unnecessary to say. However, on the other hand, no true child of God can characteristically and habitually continue in sin (1 Jn. 2:3-4). John uses the present tense "keepeth." He does not say that keeping of the commandments is the condition IN ORDER TO BE SAVED or IN ORDER TO BE JUSTIIFED or IN ORDER TO ENTER HEAVEN.



    Here is where Bob has a major problem of ignorance concerning the condition of the saved man on earth. If the saved man could not routinely "put off" the old man and "put on" the new man there would be no need for such instruction to do so. If he did not have indwelling sin as well as the indwelling Spirit of God there would be no admonition to "walk after the Spirit" rather than "after the flesh." The saved man has a dual nature that is in conflict with each other. Romans 7:25 says there exists two laws simeltaneously within the believer and the law of sin resides with the body and that is precisely why the body will die. The body (material aspect of human nature) will SERVE the law of sin whereas Paul serves the Law of God "with the mind (immaterial aspect of the human nature).

    Throughout a normal day, the normal Christian will find himself in this conflict and fail to walk "after" the Spirit, fail to "put off" the old man and serve sin. If this were not true then it would be unnecessary for Paul to say

    "Let not sin reign IN YOUR MORTAL BODY" - Rom. 6:12

    "Neither YEILD your members" - Rom. 6:13

    Paul is not saying that Christians never serve sin but that they should not serve sin at all and those who serve sin characteristically and habitually as a manner of lifestyle were never born of God.
    -----

    First, Bob has provided a false comparison as he has established his arguments on a misrepresentation of scriptures and of my position. So his conclusion can only be false and misleading.
     
  17. mets65

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    Satan introduced the idea. There will be no one in heaven to introduce the idea.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    It that accusation were actually true you would think that by now you could find at least one example to prove your accusation. ;)


    Hint - Paul was circumcised and in Acts 16 Paul requires that Timothy be circumcised. And in Acts 21 and 22 Paul claims he has no teaching at odd with scripture. You need to think that through.

    Paul's only objection is that being a Jew and becoming a Jew is not a requirement for salvation. A point also affirmed by the Acts 15 council and a point that was always true all during OT times.

    Thus in 1Cor 7:19 Paul argues that being a Jew is not what matters - rather "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

    There is no "boasting context" at all in 1Cor 7. Turns out that in exegesis - context is everything my friend.

    The chapter is not about boasting and it is not about seeing how bad you can be and still get by with it.

    the point remains.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, Jan 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2011
  19. BobRyan

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    Rom 3:31 says nothing at all about boasting.

    Rom 3:31 speaks of the issue of the New Covenant relationship to the Law for the saved saint (Law written on the tablets of the human heart) and points out that true NT faith ESTABLISHes the Law of God rather than abolishing it!

    Granted that there are texts that also speak of specific Jewish problems with boasting - but Rom 3:31 is not one of them. Rom 3:31 applies to ALL the saints.

    "do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

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    In Romans 8 we see an example of the walk of faith for the saved saint - who is by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Only THESE have the witness of the Holy Spirit "Who bears witness with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God"

    In Romans 6 we are told that the one we obey - is the one we serve.

    8. Rom 6
    1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
    2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
    3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
    4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

    5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
    6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so thatwe would no longer be slaves to sin;
    7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

    8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
    9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.


    10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
    11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
    12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
    13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,
    13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.


    14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
    15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
    16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
    17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you
    became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
    18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.



    Nice. But what part of that causes you to choke at the mere quote of Romans 6 and 8 above?

    Paul is NOT preaching a gospel of continual failure as you seem to imagine.

    Notice that in 1Cor 10 Paul says "NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS faithful who will not ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able but will with the temptation provide a way of escape".

    Paul says our victory is based on the faithfulness of God -- you appear to argue "that is not enough".

    Your argument is with the text.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #20 BobRyan, Jan 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2011

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