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How Bad can one be IN the kingdom of heaven?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, Jan 11, 2011.

  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The topic here is the Kingdom of Heaven, no?
    These verses are speaking of the Millennial Kingdom, often referred to as the Kingdom of Heaven. Those that endure the Great Tribulation, that make it through those seven years without being killed, will be physically saved. It is not speaking of spiritual salvation here. You have taken these verses out of context.

    At the end of the tribulation one may note that there still will be a great number of unsaved people that will enter the Kingdom of Heaven or the Millennial Kingdom. These unsaved will beget unsaved. Not all will come to Christ, even though Christ will rule with a rod of iron, and there will be perfect justice.
    In fact there will be so many that will not be saved that:

    And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:7-9)

    By the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, there will be so many unsaved that Satan will lead them into one last uprising against Christ but they will all be devoured by fire sent down from God. Many, many will not be saved in the Kingdom of God, the Millennial Kingdom; they will rebel, and God will devour them with fire. After that they will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment.
     
  2. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    You have to change the actual wording and spiritualize it to make Matthew 5:19 mean what you interpret below. Christ uses personal pronouns not plural generic or neuter descriptives. The same "kingdom of heaven" in verse 19 is found in verse 20. There is no contrast between OUTER darkness and INWARD kingdom existence but between "least" and "greatest" "IN" the same kingdom. You have to either reject what Jesus says here or spiritualize it in such a degree so that his words mean nothing.



    I understand the gnostic influence completely. However, he is not talking about gnosticism but about the nature of the new birth. The same John defines exactly what aspect of human nature is born of the Spirit in John 3:6 and it is not the human body nor the soul of man. In Romans 7:15-25 note the use of "I" in distinction to the "body" and "the inward man". It is the "inward man" that is born of God and delights in the law of God. The conscious self "I" has not been born of God but the governing disposition has been altered by the new birth.


    It only needs "practice" to properly understand your particular interpretation is what you want enforced upon the text. The present tense is capable of expressing many other ideas. I believe he is describing the quality of new birth rather than dealing with a gnostic view. He has already denied gnosticism in 1 John 1:8-10.
     
    #42 Dr. Walter, Jan 29, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2011
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]

    Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
    Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
    Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
    who has endured to the end who will be saved."
    Bob


    Actually I am accepting the verses as they read - saved is in fact "saved".

    You have eisegeted into them some story about the MK having unsaved saved people in it during the 1000 years. Totally without Bible evidence.

    There is not ONE single "unsaved people enter the kingdom of heaven" statement in all of scripture!

    No not one.

    But what we do have is that "The dead in Christ rise FIRST" in 1Thess 4 and the "FIRST resurrection" is the one John describes in Rev 20:4-5 at the Rev 19 "coming of Christ" event promised in John 14:1-3 "I will come again".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Noah was saved from the flood waters.
    Lot was saved from the fire and brimstone that fell upon Sodom, but his wife was not.
    Goliath was not saved from the hand of David.
    However, Saul was saved from the hand of David.

    I read the verses also, just as they are written. The word "saved," means "saved," but not in the context you put it in. You twist the Scripture to make it mean what you want it to mean.
    Read the context for yourself.

    But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Matthew 24:13)
    --In this context it is just before the middle of the tribulation. How do we know?
    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) (Matthew 24:15)
    --This is what happens in the middle of the tribulation. The antichrist breaks his covenant with the Jews, and desecrates the Temple. That puts the verse in context of the Tribulation. Not all in the Tribulation will be killed. Where is your evidence for that?

    After that event happens, Jesus gives this warning:
    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)

    Then at the very end of the Tribulation:
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:29-30)
    --Christ comes with power and great glory.

    He will defeat the enemies of the Jews; the nations that have risen up against them. But nowhere does it say that all in the world will be decimated. That is you reading into the Scriptures that which is not there. There will be some after that that will enter into His Kingdom which He will set up right after His coming.
    The judgment of the sheep and the goats takes place right at the beginning of the MK.
    The Scripture you referred speaks of the rapture which takes place before the Tribulation, which the believers are spared. Concerning the saints, the Bible states: "For we are not appointed unto wrath."
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    These verses say nothing about "a millennial kingdom on earth" where the "wicked try to be good".

    They speak to the subject of salvation itself, perseverance of the saints, enduring firm until the end.

    The special form of Calvinism that teaches that wicked-as-you-like you "enter heaven" not only denies the 3 and 5 Point Calvinist view of perseverance - it also denies the Bible teaching on perseverance of the saints as seen below.

     
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