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How can "sola scriptura" be possible?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Emily25069, Jul 26, 2008.

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  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    It's not there. But how is that relevant? You are trying to ignore the point by distraction. It's generally called a "red herring."

    Because that's not what Scripture says. "Full armor of God" is not a term that has been used in the doctrine of bibliology, and I don't think you have warrant to use it here.
     
  2. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    My goodness, MrTumnus. I dont know how you can not be somewhat embarrased to be posting what you are posting now.

    Whew.


    Mike
     
  3. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    I completely understand your dilemma and it’s a dilemma that can mentally exhaust and discourage you, if you let it. I know I was there for 4 years trying to figure out which Protestant denomination was “rightly dividing the truth.”

    I strongly believed and desired to be were Christ’s Church is and Protestantism wasn’t working for me. I even tried forcing Orthodoxy into Protestantism, thinking I could practice Orthodoxy and be a Methodist. To do so was to distort Orthodoxy and force upon Orthodoxy something its not. So I left Protestantism for Orthodoxy, and as an episode of Seinfeld portrayed…”It’s not like changing toothpaste”.

    I’ve been a Catechumen/Orthodox for a year now. I can honestly say I have found the true faith, rightly worshipping the undivided Trinity. Recently I visited home and my family and I visited the Baptist Church I grew up in that my parents are still members of. There was NO worship, maybe a little praise, but the preaching was nothing more than a “bible study”. What emptiness I felt and a reconfirming feeling that I did the right thing by waiting on God and He leading me to the Orthodox Faith.

    You mention “community” and that’s a lot like Orthodoxy. Our Liturgy and our Creed unites us and keeps us in our community. When Communist Russia murdered millions of Russian Orthodox Christians, burned down Churches and confiscated bibles and icons, it was the Liturgy that was passed on from generation to generation that the communist couldn’t rid them of and what sustained the Russian Church to this day and unchangingly, the Russian Church is back.

    Like the Hebrew people of the OT, we too are a family. We baptize our children and our children participates in the Eucharist…we do so as a family. We don’t ban our kids to the kids table; they eat with us at the big table.

    May God lead you Andre.

    In XC
    -
     
  4. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    Why then DHK, did St. Paul use non-biblical oral Tradition in II Timothy 3:8, when St. Paul refers to Jannes and Jambres as opposing Moses.

    Show the classes where these two names appear in the OT. Even though the event is recorded in Exodus, but their names aren’t.

    Same can be said with St. Jude quoting the Book of Enoch…Jude 14-15 cf. Enoch 1:9.

    In XC
    -
     
  5. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    I note you utterly fail to answer the question
     
  6. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Bo, SS means 'a Pope in every pew'. That's it. I've seen it.

    Same point to you as to Mike: you totally fail to engage with the issue, and continue to dodge the question

    Nothing there about Scripture alone, so you'll have to try again.
     
  7. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Completely obvious, I'd say. Yet again a complete failure to engage; every time you duck and dive, you raise my suspicions further
     
  8. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, right....

    Wow, just wow. So you are qualified to interpret the Scriptures and a Methodist isn't? Tell me, who died and put you in charge of determining who interprets Scripture aright? Just...wow. The arrogance of your posting style is scarcely aiding your cause...but do please keep shooting yourself in the foot.
     
  9. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Not sure what "Bo" means. I don't mean to be rude, but you are simply wrong. You are confusing people's response to an authority with the authority itself. Let’s use an example that might help to illustrate this: If a policeman turns on his lights to pull someone over, and that person takes off running, that doesn’t mean that the policeman is not an authority. It means that the person is disobeying the authority. Likewise, the fact that some disagree with Scripture does not mean that Scripture is not the authority. It means that some are disobeying authority.

    You have me confused with someone else I think. I haven’t dodged any question that I know of.
    2 Tim 3:16-17 is clear on Scripture alone. To deny that is the deny the plain meaning of the words. 2 Peter 1 is clear on Scripture’s authority coming from God. Again, to deny that is to deny the plain meaning of the words.

    Somehow, I don’t think you’d say that. In fact, you are explicitly arguing against it. Which helps to make my point. My words have meaning, but you have rejected that meaning. The problem is not in my words; the problem is in your response to them. Now, with my words, it is not a big deal. Feel free to disagree with me. But the issue of SS is similar. The problem is not that Scripture is not sufficient. It most certainly is. The problem is that people disobey them and do not submit themselves to them.

    Again, you seem confused. I have yet to “duck and dive.” I haven’t even been participating in this thread.

    Those who understand the doctrine of SS will readily find your explanation laughable. That should cause you to turn back and study some more.
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Yes, right. The differences between Baptists are relatively minor compared to differences with other denominations such as Catholics, Lutherans, the Orthodox, or some such. That is simply a matter of fact. It doesn't mean that differences don't exist, or that they are not significant in some way.

    No, I didn't say that. You need to read more carefully. Assuming that a Methodist is saved, we are both qualified to interpret the Scriptures. It is simply a matter that we do it differently and on issues of difference only one of us is right. I think a Methodist is demonstrably inconsistent. I have yet to be shown such in my own understanding that I have not changed. If you can demonstrate that I am inconsistent, I will change.

    No one. Again, please be more careful to read and think before responding. You misread my words. Don't do it again, please.

    I am not arrogant in the least. This is now several times just in a few posts where you have misread what I wrote. That doesn't make me arrogant. Seriously, Matt, please be more careful. We cannot have a constructive conversation if you continue to misread.
     
    #110 Pastor Larry, Jul 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2008
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
    --What tradition?
    Is it Catholic tradition if I pick up a history book and find out what involvement the Catholics played (if any) in WWII, or is it history? Why must you call history, "tradition"? Sounds a bit ridiculous doesn't it? The apostles had numerous historical sources available to them, and many of them still exist today--mostly of Jewish descent. That is not 'tradition,' it is historical. And the Holy Spirit inspired it.
    There are other historical events mentioned outside of the Bible referred to in Scripture. Is this against a law of yours?
    A full collection of the Jewish statements in regard to them may be found in Wetstein, in loc. They are
    also mentioned by Pliny, Nat. Hist. xxx. 7; and by Numenius, the philosopher, as quoted by Eusebius,
    ix. 8; and Origen, against Celsus, p. 199. See Wetstein. (Barnes)


    And your point is??
    Jude quoted from the Book of Enoch, a book extant at that time. The book itself is not inspired. But the Holy Spirit chose to inspire that part of the book which Jude quoted from.

    In Titus chapter one, Paul quotes a Cretian philosopher. Does that mean that all Cretian philosophers are inspired? You can draw your own conclusions.

    In his sermon on Mars Hill, Paul quotes a Greek poet. Does that mean that all Greek poetry is inspired? No, but it does mean that the portion of poetry quoted is part of the inspired Word of God. It has become inspired, just as the words of the Cretian philosopher have become inspired. If God inspires it, then it is true. No more need to be said. Tradition has nothing to do with; but the Holy Spirit certainly does.
     
  12. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    I wonder who would be the one to rightly divide the truth of God's Word, DHK or Pastor Larry or even D28Guy?

    In XC
    -
     
  13. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Just to be an advocate. Lets look at those verses:

    The problem is it dosen't specify which scripture. Does this include 1 Enoch?
    So the gospels are included. But prophets and prophesies? Assumption of Moses as well? Apocalypse of Baruk? The apocrypha? Not so straight foward. You have to rely on extra biblical sources to choose which scriptures you're talking about. Such as church councils or the Jewish Jamina council. etc...
     
  14. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    Again DHK, show the class where St. Paul read from the OT Scriptures these names. St. Paul dosen't b/c their names are not recorded in the OT. St. Paul is clearly drawing upon non-Biblical Tradition here.

    In XC
    -
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    History, not tradition.
    Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
    --What was the name of this prophet or philosopher? Does the lack of it invalidate the quote? Does the lack of the book that it is quoted from invalidate the quote? You are asking the same question.

    Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
    --What was the poet's name? Does the lack of the poet, or even the book of poetry invalidate the quote or the Scripture? Not at all. So, why are you trying to discredit Scripture by the same way. There is no tradition involved here. It is simple history.
    You do believe in historical research don't you?
     
  16. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Should have been "no"
    The question being ducked is the sola in SS. I've asked time and again for where it says 'alone'. Each time the likes of you and Mike have avoided answering or glibly said "it's clear." Er...no it isn't. It isn't clear because it doesn't say it.

    Again, you're attributing a characteristic to Scripture which it itself does not claim
    See above re justification for sola.
     
  17. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    So, given that the Reformed Baptists attribute a partial soteriology to God, and General Baptists say that He loves and wishes to save everybody (to cite just one difference), are you seriously saying that a disagreement so fundamental as to be about the very nature of God Himself is "relatively minor"?

    Doubtless the Methodist would say the same about you. You're discounting a third possibility - perhaps you're both wrong
     
  18. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    Sure, why do you think I left the Baptist Protestantism for the Orthodox Church...one of the reasons is History...

    In XC
    -
     
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The beauty of sola scriptura is that history never can over-ride Scripture. In both RCC and Orthodox, the Tradition, and other authorities, even the ECF (as far as I know) can. Their "authoritative" interpretations, become of greater importance than what the Holy Spirit says through the very Word of God itself. As one who believes in sola scriptura I am a priest before God, having the ability and right to go straight to God, and God speaks directly to me through His Word. I need no other person to intercede for me on my behalf, and no other person to inerpret the Scripture for me (as the RCC claims it must do).
     
  20. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Perhaps you're wrong. Perhaps the Pope is wrong. Perhaps this system is wrong and that system is wrong? What have you gained by including tradition in the interpretation of scripture? What have you gained by giving tradition any authority? You still have fallible men telling you what the Bible says.

    If the Bible really is the infallible word of the living God, given to man, there is NO greater authority. God chose to leave the interpretation of His word to His children. Each one of them.
     
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