How could Jesus pay for our sins with a finite sacrifice?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Apr 18, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    What I don't really understand is this.
    Hell is eternal. The punishment is eternal.
    Then why is a finite sacrifice able to pay for our sins and rescue us from eternal punishment?
    I mean Jesus tasted death but he knew exactly that after 3 days he would live again and be like normal again. Does this somehow reduce the dimension of his sacrifice because he knew it would only be temporary? I mean would Jesus also have done this if it had not been temporary and if he had to be dead for all eternity?
    Have you ever asked yourself this or is this just me? And can you even understand how a finite sacrifice is enough or do you simply have to accept this and not think about it because this is simply how it is? Because I think about this every now and then and try to understand it but somehow I don't really understand it. :confused:
     
  2. SpiritualMadMan

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    First, the blood of bulls and sheep was imperfect and decayed over time uncovering the sins covered by the OT Sacrifices...

    Jesus who knew no sin, was an unblemished and uncorrupted sacrifice...

    His shed Blood is Eternally Incorruptable, will never dacay or rot, and is therefore able to cover our sins once for all...

    Theoretically, God, looking forward through eternity and seeing a never ending perfect sacrifice then permanently closes the books on our sins to remember them no more.

    Mike Sr.

    Check Out Hebrews 9:20-28 and continues through verse 18 of chapter 10
     
  3. billwald

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    The concept of "paying" for sins is goofy.
     
  4. epistemaniac

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    trolling on Christian forums is goofy
     
  5. epistemaniac

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    what happened on the Cross, the resurrection and ascension... all have eternal ramifications... just because it happened in time and space doesn't mean that it's effects have to be limited to time and space...

    blessings,
    Ken
     
  6. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    One thing that we have to remember as well is God said Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. So it was as good as done before the foundation of the world even though it didn't physically happen until 29-33 AD wherever you might fall in that time frame [​IMG]

    So God has been able to act in grace since the foundation of the world, because the blood of Christ was applicable then even though it wasn't physically shed until 4,000 years or so later.
     
  7. tragic_pizza

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    Who says it was a finite sacrifice?
     
  8. SpiritualMadMan

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    Nice! [​IMG]
     
  9. Matt Black

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    I too struggle with the concept of penal substitutionary atonement, for the reasons xdisciplex cited (if our sins are finite, why do we deserve infinite punishment; if punishment for sin is infinite then how does Jesus' finite suffering and death atone for it and, yes, I know Jesus was/is perfect but that doesn't fully address the problem), but mainly because it strikes me, as Steve Chalke a British Baptist minister describes it, as a form of 'cosmic child abuse' ie: God the Father says "I hate sin so much that I've got to kill someone so I'll kill my Son so that's alright then".

    I don't have a problem with mere substitutionary atonement eg: death being a natural consequence of sin and Jesus taking that consequence upon Himself, 'Christus Victor', liberation from sin and its consequences,etc; some of the imagery in the Narnia Chronicles I find helpful on this issue
     
  10. Claudia_T

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    First of all Hell isnt eternal and has nothing to do with it even if it was.

    Second of all, what matters is that we broke the Law of God and Jesus kept it perfectly and was both God and man. His sacrifice is sufficient.

    CLAUDIA
     
  11. Tom Butler

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    Claudia, you are correct. His sacrifice is sufficient because the Father declared it so. In Isaiah 53, the prophet says "He shall the the travail of his soul and be satisfied." The justice of God was satisfied. A righteous and holy God can not let one sin go unpunished. So every one of our sins has been punished, and that is why we do not have to suffer it ourselves. The penalty has been paid. And once it's paid, it's paid, and cannot be un-paid.
     
  12. Joseph M. Smith

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    It is not just you. Centuries ago the Christian theologian Anselm wrote "Cur Deus Homo?" (Why the God-Man?) to struggle with the same issues. Only an infinite sacrifice could atone for an infinite offense; but only a human atoner could satisfy for human, finite, offenses. It is at least one attempt to plumb this mystery.

    I am not encouraging you not to think about the issue, not at all. But there are things -- and this is one of them -- which are so full of mystery that ultimately one has to experience and receive the gift, even though it is not fully understood.
     
  13. Kamoroso

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    Hello xdisciplex. The problem you are having understanding the gospel, is due to your belief in the immortality of the soul. Those who believe in the immortality of the soul, are choosing to believe the first lie ever told to humanity by Satan, β€œ you shall not surely die.” Thus your dilemma. How could Christ have paid the penalty for our sins by dying, when the penalty for our sins is not death, but eternal torment? The Devil knows full well that this false doctrine undermines the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this reason he has put it forward, and is most happy with all those who perpetuate this original lie.

    Jesus Christ did not burn in hell for us for eternity, because that is not the penalty for sin. The penalty for sin is death. β€œThe soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Thus Christ died for humanity, He did not burn in hell for them for eternity. Jesus Christ died the second death for all of humanity, so that all of humanity could have ever lasting life in Him. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

    I will fill in more of the details in another message. Right now I am out of time.


    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     
  14. BobRyan

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    #1. Hell does not "burn for all eternity". But the punishment of eternal fire is exactly what Jude says it is - and Sodom and Gomorrah were subjected to "eternal fire" just as Jude says. That is literally true.

    #2. Rev 14:10 WE WILL be there to see our loved ones for ALL in hell will "be tormented day and night IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb and of His Holy ones" Rev 14:10

    #3. Christ FULLY paid the debt we owe - and our debt is quantifiable - measurable and applied to Christ.

    Only as GOD could he accomodate all the suffering OWED by all mankind for ALL sins of ALL time.

    #4. The Punishment is a finite amount of "suffering" and then eternal death. Luke 12:41-55
     
  15. Matt Black

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    But, even given the SDA explanations referred to above, there is still the concept of eternal punishment whether that be visualised as death or suffering.
     
  16. SpyHunter

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    "Hell" or Hades itself is described in the Bible as a waiting place, and is described as painful and filled with agony.
    Hades is cast into the lake of fire. That is the "second death." That is the eternal torment.
    But one must consider the nature of "eternal" things. If Jesus was God in the flesh, then He was more than mortal, no?
    "Before Abraham was, I AM."
    The Greek word "aionos" (translated as "eternal") had a very profound meaning; it was more than just 'everlasting,' or 'indefinite continuity.' It was used by the philosophers as the 'life of the gods.' Or immortal life. So it is an anti-mortal word. In terms of time (where it describes punishment), it is in effect timeless, as Plato and Aristotle used it countless times as the antithesis of temporarily, or linear progression of time as we know it. Eternity is the oppose of time, in other words, as the Greek language goes.
    So, Jesus being an eternal being, could very well pay eternal sacrifice by taking upon Himself the "eternal separation" from God-- the separation which is absolute and has no shred of hope for remedy.
    Being a mortal, I myself would have to "pay" that with my own death-- and then I am "eternally separated" from God. But since Jesus Himself had no sin, then death had no hold on Him. He rose from the dead!

    I wanted to touch on a few things that other people said.

    J. Jump -- "One thing that we have to remember as well is God said Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. So it was as good as done before the foundation of the world even though it didn't physically happen until 29-33 AD wherever you might fall in that time frame

    So God has been able to act in grace since the foundation of the world, because the blood of Christ was applicable then even though it wasn't physically shed until 4,000 years or so later."

    That is dead on! The grace of God (a concept uniform throughout Scripture-- KJV "lovingkindness" in the OT and "grace" in the NT are the same word [in the Greek versions, that is]) is an eternal thing, without measure or end. The reason that all my sins are paid for-- my "ransom" having been paid-- is that as per Colossians 3:3 I believe my life is hidden with Christ. I am not just fixed up at Heaven's Hospital and sent on my merry way to be a good, little boy; I am redeemed by God and adopted (see Romans 8) into this divine family. I am not myself divine, but the abundant, eternal life of Christ is what now animates this body of death, in effect, sanctifying me body, soul, and spirit to be presented blameless, without spot or wrinkle, to the Father on the day of judgment.

    I know this was long, but I hope it answers your questions, xdisciplex.

    Blessings and Regards,
    SpyHunter
     
  17. BobRyan

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    It is true that the Bible presents us with torment and suffering "in fire and brimstone" in the "presence of the Lamb and of His Holy Ones" Rev 14:10 as the fate of the wicked - where they "suffer the punishment of eternal fire" as Jude says -- (Just like Soddom and Gomorrah did according to Jude). This suffering for each sin and then "being reduced to ashes" Malachi 4 with the "destruction OF BOTH physical body AND personnal soul in hell fire" is the second death. And it is eternal - there is no "coming back".

    So the question is - is it "the suffering" which is finite and quantifiable according to Luke 12:45-55? Or is it "remaining as ashes with both body AND soul destroyed" that is the "payment owed"?

    #1. It is "the suffering" for sure according to Luke 12 and Rev 14:10 "tormented day and night"

    #2. SINCE God has a "free will" system (according to his "Arminian Bible with all 66 books" accepted and believed) - He does not RAISE the wicked dead back and then "zap their brains to be saints". For that reason - they "stay dead".

    Christ paid the exact amount owed by all mankind for all of time - in His atoning Sacrifice. The aggregate amount for ALL those finite debts.

    But obviously - He did not stay in the grave for eternity as they will in the second death.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    J. Jump -- "One thing that we have to remember as well is God said Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. So it was as good as done before the foundation of the world even though it didn't physically happen until 29-33 AD wherever you might fall in that time frame

    So God has been able to act in grace since the foundation of the world, because the blood of Christ was applicable then even though it wasn't physically shed until 4,000 years or so later."

    Gal 1:6-11 "ONE Gospel" in all of time just as J. Jump describes above.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Claudia_T

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    It is eternal punish-ment not eternal punish-ing

    Rom:9:22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

    Phil:3:19: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

    2Thes:1:9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

    Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord is the eternal punish-ment not punish-ing.

    ...as in you dont get punished forever.

    It was this experiencing of separation from God forever that broke the heart of Jesus when dying on the cross. He experienced that for us, the second death.

    "My God why hast thou forsaken Me?"


    Rv:20:14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death .

    This is what was also known as "THE DEATH"

    Mt:15:4: For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death .

    Claudia

    [ April 20, 2006, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
  20. Claudia_T

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    Dont mistake me though, for even though the wicked will die the second death, still, there will first be some "weeping and gnashing of teeth" in hellfire till they "pay up" for all their sins committed...


    Matthew 18:
    23: Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
    24: And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
    25: But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
    26: The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
    27: Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
    28: But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
    29: And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

    30: And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt .


    Lk:12:47: And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

    Lk:12:48: But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
     

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