How dead is man that God's word cannot revive him?

Who says? And don't say Paul and quote Eph 2, because it is clear from Romans 3 and throughout scripture that Paul is fighting against those who believe in salvation by the works of the law when he speaks of boasting. He is not speaking about people who are "boasting" because of their faith, that is ridiculous to assume such things. There is nothing in the text that indicates that is Paul's intent. </font>[/QUOTE]Paul is speaking about "boasting" of our works whether the works be the crass satisfactions of the Romanists or the work of faith (less resistance) of the Arminians. We are made just by the faith of Christ given by the Holy Spirit not by any foreseen merit. "It is God that justifieth." Romans 8:33. "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." Gal. 2:16. "I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal. 2:20. "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Cor. 12:3.

 

man is not born again by accepting the faith of Christ, or accepting of the understanding or knowledge of the works of Christ.

man is saved by the occupation of the actual spirit of christ within their bodies.

it is the faith OF this spirit.

when one states "the faith of Christ". it has nothing to do with the human beings life that houses this spirit. it is eminating from the actual spirit that has been crusified, delivered into death and resurrected into the presence of God, that the faith is from.
it is this selfsame spirit that is joined to mans souls that has experienced the fathers power "first hand".
it is the selfsame spirit that is now within the professors body...

man has no rightous faith unless it is from the resurrected spirit that is within him. (this is not speaking of the holy spirit, but the actual resurrected spirit of the man called Jesus Christ.)
"It is his faith, that becomes our faith"
as it is given to us as a free gift.

the spirit and everything that comes self containted within the spirit. it is called "grace"

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

thats our flesh!...so then..

dead means that one is disconnected from the spirit of righteousness of God.
dead means having within oneself a carnal cursed spirit incapable of communicating and understanding God.
dead means not having christ resurrected spirit within ones body.

Me2

 

The Gospel

And secondly, "Does he give it effectually and irresistably?"

No. The Holy Spirit works faith when and where it pleases God. Men are freely justified when they believe they are received into grace and theirs sins are forgiven for Christ's sake.

You can show me from scripture that faith is a gift from God and that I accept. But where does scripture teach faith is given irresistably by some secret means.

It doesn't.

I believe faith comes through the word, given by God, and it can be resisted and denied by the will of men. That is seen throughout scripture.

Faith is resisted and denied by man but not because of any will of his own. Man's will is in bondage to Satan and he has no spiritual will either to do good or evil.

 

Skandelon,
The word is given by God BUT it will be resisted and rejected by the flesh (man), UNTIL the Holy Ghost reveals it to man.
Then and only then does Faith enter into the equation. 1 Corinthians 12:3 ....no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 

the word meaning words in a book can be resisted by the minds of men.

yet the word meaning the spirit of Christ is resisted by NO MAN.

it is not even seeked out by man. It is the father that initiates this union between man and spirit. its all or nothing here. either you are planned to receive the spirit or not!

God doesnt invite man to accept something man isnt seeking nor desires...it is thrust onto man by God himself and mankind learns what happened AFTER THE FACT.

It is man who is ignorant of what they perceive is happening here. it may look like man is being invited into a relationship by much talk between men, but inside man... either he has the Christ spirit or he doesnt.
either he has been given the spirit, and that he will learn from the Holy Spirit about what had happened
or he hasnt been given the spirit and will learn through a book without the holy spirit,and without understanding.

thinking man will gradually accept anything of God is a misnomer. God has a schedule. he chooses his pupils and they begin their session of schooling. it not a hit or miss. it is not a pass or fail.

he chooses. they meet his requirements and fulfill his will for the purpose that he has intended man to fulfill from the beginning of time..

 

(isnt it God who has prechoosen before the foundation of the world who will be reprobates?..I think thats right!)

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

we know that a spiritual battle is brewing and these statements only reveal that there are two distinct sides. yet it is still God who is choosing who is on what side, and when the battle actually begins!

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

It is God who chooses the battle lines, the opposing soldiers, as well as the weapons used in the battle on each side.
it is for mankind to discover why we must enter into this battle and war against each other.

Me2

 

Skandelon,

all those who God will show mercy towards are called the "sons of God"
they are representatives of God his creation in the next age.
they represent truth and righteousness.

so yes all God is calling vessels of mercy will be saved. and they will be saved specifically in their physical lifetime.

they are temporarily hardened and yes they will also be eventually saved. yes I believe they will exist in an attitudnal position called "hell" as they are chosen to represent unrighteousness and error in the next age.
no one is eternally damned of God. worse case senerio is that a rebellious person is placed in a position of being loved of God. the lake of fire is being placed "in Christ".

first unitarian universalism is a christian cult. which Im not one of.
I believe in the universal salvation of all of Gods creation through the salvation and acceptance of the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

no. there are a specific number God calls to be vessels of mercy, or the body of christ (which consists of young men and fathers) as well as a specific number God calls to be vessels of wrath (antichrists and false prophets). yet there are a large number not called of God. as well as those caught in the backdraft of doctrines of men. (the sea)

the battle will be in the next age against truth and error. with the prize being all people not called in this age.

Me2

 

Me2, it has been hard to figure out exactly what your position is. On one hand, you seem to be generally posting on the side of Calvinism. And then you hold some positions that are extreme for most of them that we once debated, such as the unborn being damned because they didn't live to repent. Yet you belive in "universalism"? I just don't get it.
Would you happen to believe in Herbrt Armstrong's soteriology? He accepted the standard Calvinistic concept of Total inability and unconditional election, but held that those "passed by" in this life would miss the resurrection of the just, but be given their first real chance to "believe" at the Great White Throne, which was for "judgement", meaning not necesarily a sentence to Gehenna. That way, you had an almost universal salvation, even though not all are offered it at this time (Citing 1 Cor.15:22-27)(The only ones who end up in the lake of fire are those who refuse when called). Might this be what you believe? If so, the debate against Calvinism really does not apply to you. The main opposition against Calvinism is because it teaches that most ultimately have no chance to escape hell. If you're saying that all will somehow end up saved in the end, then the debate with you is to prove that those who die without Christ will be offeredan opportunity afterward. I once believed that, but then came to find there was not enough scriptural support for it. Nice idea, though.

 

Skandelon,

we cant forget the mystery explained here by paul

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
(gentiles; vessels of mercy; spirit by faith)

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
(israel; vessel of wrath; law w/o spirit)

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(both groups together israel and gentiles; vessels of wrath AND vessels of mercy)

I see no discrepency. the same rules apply today WITHIN christianity. those who follow God by the law w/o the spirit and those who follow God by the spirit by faith.

now the mystery was hidden from mankinds knowledge from the beginning of the creation of man. it is not that God gave mercy to the gentiles after creation started to unfold.
it was planned all along to incorporate this group into Gods plans. it was to bring out a more focused view of Gods plan of salvation towards mankind. this definition given by paul only speaks of those called of God.
Dont you notice billions not receiving Gods call today? (because plainly they are not being called. they are not being shown immediate mercy as you would like to see.)
perhaps your defining Gods timeframe for offering mercy to all before the time limit is over?
anyway Paul doesnt mention all here in romans. he focuses on only two groups pitted against each other within Gods overall plan.

no man knows who has the spirit of God in the child and baby stages of understanding. concepts are mentally accepted yet until they are proven by faith. no man knows whom God has called and for what purposes. (be they young men or fathers or antichrists and false prophets) until faith brings them to the forefront and their knowledge exposes them. we can only witness of our personal opinion and agree or disagree among ourselves.

yet later faith unfolds these into two distinct groups. one who demands justice without mercy and the other demanding justice with mercy.

we can say this another way. hell without mercy,
or hell with mercy

Me2

 

Eric b.,

Im not that hard to pin down..Im a baptist that believes all will be reconciled to God in the end of his revealed plans.
If theres somethings that orthodox baptists follow that I dont believe to be right. I wont allow man to lead me around like a farm animal. I allow God to teach me before my carnal mind makes up doctrines on its own

calvinist have doctrine that I can agree with in principle. sovereignty of God, total depravity, OSAS.

yet the limited atonement is a "time" limited truth. for Jesus died for all men. it is a finite plan to elect some to save all. as the reverse. some are hardened to be temporary resistance towards truth, yet they will be eventually saved after their purpose has been fulfilled.

now the unborn being damned. this is biblical. all who are born of this flesh world have a carnal spirit. it must be reborn through a process God has designed by dying to self righteousness and being placed into the image called "in Christ".
I advocate the existence of the curse and its consequences, yet give hope in also advocating redemption in the age to come whereas all humans born in this cursed world will eventually reach an age of maturity and full knowledge of Our lord Jesus Christ in the spirit world where mankind was designed to eventually exist in.
we are not designed to be clay pots w/o righteousness. we are designed to be a righteous spirit covered over by a clay pot.

now herbert armstrong..he's a nut. a waste of time.

judgement seats? who sitting there. why its the elect chosen in this age!
heaven is a mentoring system. as we are placed in christ today. creation is placed into the elect in the next age.

both arminians and calvinists have shortfalls within their doctrines. yet both believe in an eternal hell without repreive.
both give free will to man to refuse Gods will.
strip eternal hell away from both their doctrines and their denonminations become more palatable.
strip away mans free will and give total sovereignty to God and the responsibility is now placed on Gods shoulders where it should always stay. mankind is accountable, not responsible. meaning we are holy bookkeepers. we exist to live. we account of our actions. yet we were duped from the beginning of creation by being placed into this cursed existence we call death. we are not held responsible for Jesus TOOK THAT CONSEQUENCE ON THE CROSS. yet we are accountably for we must give an account of what occurred in our physical life.
this is called learning good and evil. experienceing first hand what is good and what is evil. we are accounting what knowledge is.
did satan fall? does he have free will? no he's Gods tool to teach mankind the knowledge of evil.
did God plunge man into vanity to learn the knowledge of Good and evil?...you bet!

the lake of fire..is this an enemy of God? is this another tool? the lake is a symbol of righteousness. of knowledge of Good and evil. and all mankind is placed in their. christians called today go through the same "system" of refinement and purging. the elect will teach creation there what is good and evil and truth and error. everyone will experience one anothers faults and be blessed with one anothers blessing.
Think about this eric. Jesus had abilities which should be normal in all men. the elect in the lake will demonstrate these qualities. by knowing everyone. their faults, their triumphs. their pains, hopes and dreams. the elect will absorb each individual life of Gods creation to personally teach righteousness.
if one knows what is lacking. one can supply their needs. this is becoming all in all with mankind.
it is knowing intimately each other.

I focus on my needs eric. I see that everyone should receive the same blessing that I receive. I am just like any other creature of God.

I dont believe anyone can be trapped in an eternal hell for I have hope as opposed to others who feel hopeless. I believe in an infinite loving God whereas mankind is Gods object of Love.
not his target of Disdain.

now debating..nobody wins. mankind cant prove or disprove anything within his limitations of his finite thinking. we can give our opinions and listen to others. we witness. that all we do.

Even God states that his concepts are mysteries.

they are personal messages that you cant tell anyone. yet sometimes you might find another that has received the same message from God. and you might exchange ways of describing what you understand through various means of discription.

yet to you, I can stress the facts that those called of God are priest before Him. They can either forgive or hold back forgiveness.
this is the main distinction of the two groups of vessels God calls today. christs or antichrists.
those who judge by the law and those who judge by the mercy of Christ.

me, I offer mercy to all. thats my nature of which Im being prepared for the next age.
I didnt ask for it. it just is.

Me2

 

Funny, I was going to say that the scripture tells us that those who are saved are those whom He foreknew, predestined, called, justified and glorified. The rest are not saved. The former are the elect, and the latter are the rest.

I don't think scripture actually gives us a precise formula for why one person believes and another does not. But it does repeatedly associate believing with what God does, gives, or decides. It only associates unbelieving with what man does, I guess because we're so talented at it. To paraprhase verses from memory:

"And all those who were appointed to eternal life believed" [and one can take it for granted that all those who were not appointed to eternal life did not believe]

"It is granted to you not only to believe, but also..."

"You are saved by grace through faith, and this [faith] is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God..."