How did the Apostle Paul get it so wrong?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Jan 15, 2015.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
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    Paul wrote in Romans 6 this;

    6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


    Paul gives a clear answer....may it never be....God forbid.....our position In Christ makes it not possible to Live in sin as a practice. He does not say we cannot commit an act of sin....but he says we cannot practice it...

    And yet...a random poster suggests paul has not gotten the answer correct as he would suggest a man centered optional answer.

    So.....if this random poster is correct......How did the Apostle get this wrong????



    This is a partial list...I am sure there is more where this came from...the poster states that adulterers and adulteresses, friends of the world, those living according to the flesh, are okay...even though God is not pleased with these things.

    What do you say? Was Paul wrong and this random poster correct?:thumbs:
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    well seems that most on the Baptist board believe the Apostle Paul did not get it wrong and that it is not optional to live in the flash live in the spirit or just live anyway you feel like.
     
  3. kyredneck

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    Actually Icon, I'm having difficulty in deciphering who said what in the OP.
     
  4. quantumfaith

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    Ditto. Just perusing the last post that ICON provided leaves me confused.
     
  5. OldRegular

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    The Apostle Paul was correct else the Bible is not trustworthy. But it is the inerrant Word of God, and I believe verbally inspired, and therefore is trustworthy.

    First we have the words spoken by Jesus Christ:

    John 14:15. If ye love me, keep my commandments.

    John 14:23. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


    And then the Apostle John tells us what to do when we do sin:

    1 John 2:1-6
    1. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
    3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked
     
  6. kyredneck

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    It concerns me a little, I hope he's alright.
     
  7. quantumfaith

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    I understand the difficulty of relating multiple conversations. Something clear in our own mind becomes jumbled sometimes when explaining it to others.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    Sorry for the confusion. In the OP the first two verses of Romans 6 are quoted.

    I mention this...then put in quotes 4 quotes from a "random poster"...an unnamed individual. I believe this poster offers ideas that others hold also.

    If those 4 posts are correct, then the Apostle Paul did not get it right.
    Paul asks the question;

    6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


    he answers the question in a direct way....may it NEVER be...God forbid.

    The idea of continuing on in a life of sin did not enter His mind. he knows that we are still able to sin, and later on instructs us to mortify remaining sinful impulses. So that is not the issue at all.
    The issue is can someone who is in Christ[savingly, by God given faith} continue to practice sin in a habitual way???

    The random poster has suggested that ...yes by all means we can. If that were true, Paul would have spoken out of turn.....

    In my second post...there was a typo...I see...it should have read.FLESH...not flash:confused::confused:

    it should have said this.......
    and that it is not optional to live in the flesh,
    or perhaps live in the spirit
    or just live anyway you feel like.
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Jan 15, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2015
  9. Iconoclast

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: That is exactly how I would read it. I would think this was not an issue. There is a new relationship to sin. It no longer reigns over a believer, it is no longer a friend, but now it is an enemy that is to be mortified,watched out for, and prayed against....

    14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

    This is no option but a command and a protection:thumbs:
     
  10. OldRegular

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    Not to worry Kaintuck. I have it on good authority that Icon is fine!
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    Sometime my voice to text betrays me:laugh: The rest of the time I mess up the old fashioned way.....:laugh::thumbsup:
     
  12. quantumfaith

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  13. Sapper Woody

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    You realize you turned it into an either/or, right? There's also a third option: that Paul got it right, but you misunderstood him. I read it as written. To paraphrase: "Should we keep sinning because we know that God will show us grace? No!"



    Any person can succumb to any sin. And the more that person does that sin, the easier it becomes.



    In all honesty, if you mean that habitual sin means that a person is not truly saved, then many of the posters here are unsaved. They habitually lie, lose their temper, and belittle others.
     
  14. quantumfaith

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    Thanks SW for giving me some clarity. I was a little lost in the weeds. I agree with you.....

    I guess perhaps much rides on this definition of "habitual". Since sin is in essence a part of our nature (DNA) it will be ever present in our lives. As I see it, as believers, we have now the privilege and authority to deny it but unfortunately we TOO often do not.
     
  15. PreachTony

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    I agree with SW. My thought has always been that a saved person is not freed from their sin nature, as so long as we inhabit the natural body we will face sin daily. However, as 1 John 2:1-2 reads: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    It is known that we will sin, and while we may strive not to, we will still fall into sin from time to time. This does not justify sin in any way. But we have to recognize that, when we do sin, we have an open avenue to Jesus Christ, a direct path to the most Holy, who makes intercession on our behalf.
     
  16. kyredneck

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    New International Version
    What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

    New Living Translation
    Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace?

    English Standard Version
    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?

    New American Standard Bible
    What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

    King James Bible
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    What should we say then? Should we continue in sin so that grace may multiply?

    International Standard Version
    What should we say, then? Should we go on sinning so that grace may increase?

    NET Bible
    What shall we say then? Are we to remain in sin so that grace may increase?

    Aramaic Bible in Plain English
    What shall we say, therefore? Shall we remain in sin that grace may abound?

    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    What should we say then? Should we continue to sin so that God's kindness will increase?

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

    King James 2000 Bible
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    American King James Version
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    American Standard Version
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    WHAT shall we say, then? shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Darby Bible Translation
    What then shall we say? Should we continue in sin that grace may abound?

    English Revised Version
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Webster's Bible Translation
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Weymouth New Testament
    To what conclusion, then, shall we come? Are we to persist in sinning in order that the grace extended to us may be the greater?

    World English Bible
    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Young's Literal Translation
    What, then, shall we say? shall we continue in the sin that the grace may abound?

    http://biblehub.com/romans/6-1.htm
     
  17. kyredneck

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    Actually I think the backdrop of decadent, idolatrous Rome with it's multiple Gods and worship that commonly, casually, included fornication and other immoral acts with it's constant allurement to those former pagan Christians to return and partake should be considered when interpreting Paul here. Was it just 'any sin' that he's addressing, or is there a deeper inference?

    Consider the passage from Hebrews:

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
    27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
    29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

    Is it just 'any sin' that has such horrific consequences? No. The backdrop of apostate Judaism and it's allurement to those Jewish Christians to return to and the impending awful judgment soon to come upon national Israel is what is being inferred. Not just 'any sin'.
     
    #17 kyredneck, Jan 16, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2015
  18. OldRegular

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    Scripture tells us:

    Matthew 12:36. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

    I have thought often about all the "idle words", many times hateful words, that I and others have posted on this Forum!
     
  19. Van

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    The issue of this thread seems to be an attack on Easy Believism. If we walk an aisle, and confess our faith in Christ as Savior and Lord, we are saved forever. Now if, after making that confession, our life does not change either inwardly or outwardly, are we safe in thinking we are saved, or might we be like those of Matthew 7 who cried, "Lord, Lord" but practiced Lawlessness, and were never saved.

    Many, including the dreaded Calvinists, believe if a person goes out from us, i.e. lives a Lawless life, they were never actually saved. Because if they were indeed indwelt, the Holy Spirit would convict them and at least internally, they would feel remorse and shame for being a worthless servant.

    The step left out of the Easy Believism view, is that God credits our faith as righteousness as the basis for transferring us spiritually into Christ. If we did not make a wholehearted commitment, then according to scripture, God might not credit that superficial or less than wholehearted faith as righteousness. Some of these, then fall away, like the second and third soils of Matthew 13.
     
    #19 Van, Jan 16, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2015
  20. Iconoclast

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    Hello SW

    the key is what does scripture say about it?

    It is not a light thing to be dismissed....agree?.

    Certainly if a person can behave where someone can say.....they are a liar or a thief.....the profession they make becomes void....
     

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