how do arminians reconcile this verse

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by massdak, Jun 13, 2004.

  1. massdak

    massdak
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    Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.


    many are called IE the gospel message.

    few are chosen

    who chooses who?
     
  2. Skandelon

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    God chooses us. Arminians don't dispute that.

    Notice the analogy our Lord is using is about a wedding feast and the garments the attendees are wearing. In verses 3-8 it is clear the Lord is making reference to the rejection of the Jewish people to God's patient and continued calling in the face of their unwllingness to respond (Matt. 23:37). In verse 9 the Gentiles are introduced as "everyone else" in the streets and byways. The garments obviously represent the garments of Christ which are put on by faith. Apparently those who did not know Christ and who did not put on his garments came to the banquet without their "wedding clothes." They were called but because they had not in faith put on their garments of righteousness they were not chosen.

    Notice a key point of this parable. They weren't chosen BECAUSE they didn't put on the right garment which means God's choice of them was dependant upon the clothes they chose to wear. God chose whether or not they would be accepted AFTER they chose what garments to wear to the wedding.

    The point of the analogy is to cause people who have responded positively to the call of the gospel to look at themselves and see what garments they are currently wearing. Many are called and many even respond to that call (Matt 7:14) but not all will be saved or chosen to enter the feast on that day. That will be determined by the garments.

    Are you wearing the garments of Christ or the garments of your own works? The garments of Christ can be attained only through faith in Him.
     
  3. massdak

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    so you believe the elect are chosen by their choice of faith and not according to Gods purpose?

    the people that you believe that responded to the call but do not have Christ are they deceived? why haven't they been given enough light to believe?
    you need to see that it is Gods mercy and not a persons self willingness that gets them saved.

    Rom 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
     
  4. Skandelon

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    Have you considered the possiblity that man's choosing by faith IS according to God's purpose?

    Read Matt. 7:14, its not their efforts that save them, I agree. Its their knowing and being known by Christ, which is done through faith.
     
  5. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Massdak;
    There is no question that God chooses us;

    Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    IMHO everyone who is saved is chosen by God. We are chosen for Salvation and all we have to do is receive it.

    The reason IMO that so few are chosen is simple. It's because most reject Christ just as the Jews did. The Jews were chosen. Oh I know not all are Jews who claim to be. It's just I'm not talking about imposters I'm talking about Jews. The ones related to Jacob.

    God's word says;
    Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    You see they had a choice and they choose to reject our precious Lord. This is why only a few are chosen.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  6. npetreley

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    Although I see what you're trying to make the text say, your conclusion makes a leap that does not exist in the text, and therefore makes your statement inconsistent. Here's a consistent version of your statement:

    But the verse does not say "many are called, but few choose rightly". It says "many are called, but few are chosen."

    Here's another thing - consider the closer context of the verse Matthew 22:14

    This man was "called" to the wedding feast and he actually got in, but he was tossed back out because he didn't have wedding clothes on. That's a tough one to match up exactly to any type of soteriology, isn't it? Why? Because it's a parable, not a literal statement of theology. It illustrates some principles.

    IMO, this parable is describing God's plan for revealing His Son to His people. His people, who should have been most likely to recognizes His Son and respond, did not respond. So God went out and brought in the "lesser" gentiles, instead. But even so, not all gentiles are chosen.

    Now -- WHY many of the Jews did not respond, and WHY many of the gentiles did respond is a question of election and free will. But, IMO, that is not even addressed at all in this parable.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi npetreley;

    IMHO those wedding clothes are a mans faith in God because we are saved by grace through faith. Eph 2:8
    The grace is not of our selves but the faith is our not rejecting Christ. The genetic line of Christ rejected him and yes they were elect and because of there rejection God broke them out of the olive tree and cast them aside to be gathered and burned, so that we gentiles might be grafted in. Not that we should bragg about it because we can be broken out as well for boasting. Not only this they can be grafted back in if they only repent and believe...

    Which part of this Parable is untrue? and where does it say that it's not true?
    May God bless you;
    Mike
     
  8. massdak

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    it boils down that man has no interest in doing anything for God or anything honorable toward God

    man has an obligation that man will not keep and man is still responsible even if man is morally incapable

    if God doesn't prepare mans heart to receive Him, that is Jesus, the way lydia was in acts, then if man is left alone he will certainly not come to the Lord
     
  9. Skandelon

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    npetereley,

    It is clear that the reason they are chosen is due to the garments they are wearing. That completely undermines the idea that God chose them without regard to their faith.
     
  10. npetreley

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    The simple fact is that you're arguing as if this parable is all about how salvation works. IMO, the issue of salvation is tangential to the parable, not the point of it. It's about God's plan for Jews and Gentiles.

    IMO, to focus on any detail of a parable (such as the man's clothes) is missing the forest for the trees. To cite more obvious examples:

    "To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? 21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."

    Leaven generally symbolizes evil. So is Jesus saying that the kingdom of God is like evil that permeates the world?

    45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

    So is Jesus saying the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls? And when He says He's goign to sell everything, does that mean He's going to sacrifice Himself on the cross? But he only found one (1) (count 'em - one) fine pearl! Does that mean only one person will be saved?

    Or are we the merchants, and Jesus is saying we can buy our way into the kingdom of heaven?

    Like I said, parables illustrate a concept. Take any part of it too literally, and you end up chasing your tail.
     
  11. Skandelon

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    Your point is made that you can't take a parable to far and I agree, but I didn't do that with this parable. And I noticed that you didn't offer another better interpretation that actually fit the parable.

    So, what do the garments represent? And why is it that when God sees them in those garments that he casts them out?
     
  12. Terry_Herrington

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    God calls all men to salvation, But He chooses only those who will put their faith in Christ.
     
  13. npetreley

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    Says you. I think you did. Therefore I offer no further interpretations of details you believe are important, but I believe are unimportant.
     
  14. massdak

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    why do some put their faith in Christ while others do not? is everyone given equal light?
     
  15. Skandelon

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    The garments aren't important? The garments are the whole reason some are cast out and yet in order for you to avoid any conflict with your system you just ignore them and determine in your own mind that it must not be important.

    Revealing. :rolleyes:
     
  16. Terry_Herrington

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    why do some put their faith in Christ while others do not? is everyone given equal light? </font>[/QUOTE]I do not think that everyone is given equal light, just like everyone is not given equal life here on earth. As far as explaining the why's of it, I don't have a clue.
     
  17. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Npetreley;
    a quote from you;
    I've read it a hundred times and I never come away with exactly the same conclusion. You're right it doesn't say any thing about election or freewill.
    Looking at the seen play out in my mind, I would say it was because the man showed up unprepared. Sort of like applying for a job at a garage as a mechanic in a three piece suit and tie. Totally unprepared for the Job.

    Wouldn't you agree given the Parable of the 10 virgins that most people won't be prepared. We all need to keep oil on hand.
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  18. KayDee

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    I see it a little differently:
    IS 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD;
    my soul shall exult in my God,
    for He has clothed me with the garments of salvation;
    He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
    as a bridegroom decks himself like a priest with a beautiful headdress,
    and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

    Scripture consistently describes Christ as providing our clothing, all the way back to Adam & Eve. What they made was not acceptable. So, it seems the guests whose clothes were acceptable were provided by the host…they didn’t choose which ones to wear…He did. Certainly, they would be acceptable.
     
  19. Skandelon

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    KayDee,

    Absolutely, I didn't mean to indicate any differently. But the question is still this: Through what means does Christ cloth us? The answer in scripture is "through faith."

    They are certainly Christ's clothes but they are applied through faith.
     
  20. npetreley

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    The question then becomes, "Where do we get this faith?" And the answer is given in Ephesians 2:8. It is the gift of God, not of ourselves.

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that [faith] not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"

    Some people want to say "that" refers back to salvation, but that is grammatically incorrect, because it would be saying...

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that [saved] not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,"

    The grammatically correct way to say that would be...

    "For by grace you have received salvation, through faith, and that [salvation]..."

    But that's not how the verse reads, because that is not what the author means.

    Some people want "that" to refer back to grace. This, if to a lesser degree, is still grammatically incorrect. It would make the verse say...

    Grace is defined even in Webster's as "unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification". "unmerited divine assistance given" is just a fancy way of saying "unmerited gift of God". Therefore, to say "that" refers back to "grace" would be to say...

    "For by the unmerited gift of God you have been saved through faith, and that unmerited gift of God is not of yourselves; it is the unmerited gift of God,"

    That would be like me handing you a gift, saying "I'm giving you this free gift from me, and this free gift I'm giving you is not from you, it is a free gift from me that I'm giving you." While this is essentially a true and consistent statement, it is one that would be written by a moron, not by someone like Paul.
     

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