how do arminians reconcile this verse

Hi npetreley;
A quote from you;

You could say that it was a gift because faith comes from hearing the gospel and the gospel was a gift from God so we would know the teaching's of our Lord. But the gospel is to be preached to every living creature so that we might aquire faith. The gift of eternal life is aquired by having that faith.
A quote from you;

No matter how you look at it a gift is something that has to be received or it is no longer a gift. This particlar gift has to be received by faith. How does one receive this gift in order to have faith? The gift being grace. You say we are regenerated in order to believe. We can't have regeneration with out grace. I believe that regeneration is the results of God's grace, because of our faith.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

How do you make Matt. 22 the gospel?
Are you just looking for the word chosen and then building on it?
"42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her."
So were you chosen by Mary?
One of the chosen is a DEVIL
"70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
If you are one of the chosen how do we know you are not a devil?

"

 

"18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."

Judas the "chosen"
"

 

Where do we get faith?
Rom. 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

 

Many were called to the 'wedding supper' but many of them did not show. They rejected what was offered and were not chosen to be in the ceremony (or the book of Life).

That's the story, and I'm sticking to it.

 

This is a popular semantic argument, but it is flawed. Receiving a gift MAY involve action by the receiver, but it does NOT REQUIRE action on the part of the receiver. I can deposit $100 into your checking account, and you have received my gift without your will (free or otherwise) being involved in any way.

If the difference between the saved person and the unsaved person is faith which originates in man (and not as a gift from God), then man has something about which to boast regarding his salvation.

 

quote; Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
No matter how you look at it a gift is something that has to be received or it is no longer a gift.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a popular semantic argument, but it is flawed. Receiving a gift MAY involve action by the receiver, but it does NOT REQUIRE action on the part of the receiver. I can deposit $100 into your checking account, and you have received my gift without your will (free or otherwise) being involved in any way.

Now that is manipulative logic. A gift cannot be forced. I can make someone take something or give it to them deceitfully but that is not a gift.

 

Hi Npetreley;
A quote from you;

Actually this happened to me not long ago. Someone made a deposit in to my account by accident I suppose. When I got my statement I questioned the bank about it. They tried to tell me of course they don't make mistakes but I told them if they didn't straighten it out I would call the banking commission. Funny how fast they took care of there mistake. I could have kept the money but $4500.00 doesn't go un-noticed by the IRS. If I would have kept this unexpected gift I would have to pay taxes on it not to mention the bank could have come back later and demanded repayment. This whole mess would have wound up costing me more than it was worth.

You see I handle a lot of other peoples money everyday. Integrity in my position is very important. I would not accept the deposit from some one else to my account.It's not only dishonest but can get you into a lot of trouble.

Does faith originate in man? Since faith comes by hearing the word of God I would say that it originated in God's word.
Example;
Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
Luk 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
The apostles asked and what did Christ do? but give him more of His word. He told them about the mustard seed. I don't know about you but everytime I read something from God's word it increases my faith. Which is why I try to read it everyday. When I miss a day it's worse than missing a meal.If you know what I mean LOL
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

That really stretches the analogy past the breaking point. What you are talking about is a bank error. What I was talking about was a gift. It is not a bank error for me to deposit $100 into your bank account, and I can do so without you having to take any action whatsoever to receive that gift. I could continue to argue that I'd call you to tell you what I had given you so that you wouldn't assume it was a mistake, etc., but then we'd be fussing about the analogy and not the point.

The point is simple. It is patently false to say that it REQUIRES action on the part of the receiver in order to receive a gift. It MAY involve action on the part of the receiver, but it is NOT required. So one cannot use the definition of what it means to receive a gift to "prove" that free-will action is part of salvation.

I heartily agree that faith is increased by hearing/reading the word of God. And I also believe that when you ask God to increase your faith, God will answer that prayer.

But if you are quoting scripture on this point, you are misquoting it. The scripture actually says:

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The distinction is important, because it does NOT say faith comes by hearing the word of God. It says faith comes by hearing. Then it proceeds to say that hearing comes by the word of God.

Why is this important? Let's look at two key Greek words in this verse. The Greek for "hearing" in this verse is "akoe", which means "the sense of hearing". Note also that the Greek for "word" in "word of God" is NOT "logos" (as in written word) but "rhema" (as in uttered word).

So the verse, properly rendered in detail, would be:

17 So then faith [comes] by [the sense of] hearing, and [the sense of] hearing [comes] by the [uttered] word of God.

Now, I think you'll agree, this verse would be silly if the "sense of hearing" referred to the difference between deafness and the ability to hear sound. It obviously refers to the "ability to hear and understand" as described in sayings like "those who have ears to hear". And scripture reiterates where we get ears to hear when Deuteronomy 29:4 says Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.

That gives a whole new meaning to "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", now doesn't it?

May God bless you, too!

 

Hi Npetreley;
A quote from you.

I understand the point. It still boils down to whether I want the gift. If I do not want the gift no matter what the circumstances I do not have to accept the gift. If you refused to take it back I'd just give it to someone else.

The gift's reception IMHO depends on my desire for it. I believe God's word can and does create that desire in us for that Gift by us hearing it. I believe every man can hear and understand.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

It is not a matter of being dead spiritually that we do not hear or understand because we do. It is a matter of mans heart when hearing the gospel as to whether or not he responds. The gospel IMHO with the help of the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins softening our hearts making it possible to repent if we repent we are saved by the Faith that brought us Grace. Because it is through faith that we are granted Grace. Eph 2:8.

I'm sorry but I disagree. It does require the action of accepting it. No one keeps what they do not want. Judas had this gift given to him and he rejected it. No one can argue that he wasn't one of the chosen 12 yet he turned out to be a devil. How could someone be chosen and turn against Christ? Of course Christ knew he would turn against him when he choose him but that still doesn't negate the fact that Judas was chosen by God.

Of course God gave us the eyes to see with and ears to hear with and a mind to understand.

Deu 29:6 Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the LORD your God.

The way they had to know that God is who He said He is by all the things that took place in the wilderness being led by Moses who was led by God.

Not only that but God gave them a choice in;

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Was God talking about eternal life or natural life. Before I became a born again Christian I didn't know what blessings were or even if they exsisted. I certainly don't believe I ever received one until I received Christ as my personal Savior. He is the greatest of all blessings His blessings bring peace and strength that I never had before.

Most of our differences are minute believing what you believe about Christ is the most important no matter how you come to believe it.

May God bless you brother;
Mike

 

Now you're quibbling about whether or not you can willfully reject a gift after you've already received it, but that still doesn't rescue the analogy. Whether or not you choose to RETURN or REJECT the gift AFTER you've RECEIVED it, you still received it without any action on your part.

Plain and simple, it does NOT require any will or action on the part of the receiving person in order to receive a gift.

I would say that the gift's ACCEPTANCE depends on the desire for it. And while I may disagree about the process, I agree that it is God who gives the gift and God who gives us the desire to receive the gift. Free will has nothing whatsoever to do with the process.

Scripture clearly disagrees with you. There are several places where scripture not only says God refrained from giving people ears to hear, it also says God has given people the spirit of stupor so that they cannot hear and understand. In some cases this is "hardening", in other cases it is simply God withholding the ability (as in Deuteronomy 29).

Whether or not we agree on this, that assertion still leaves unresolved the issue of where we get the faith. IMO, nothing could be more clear than that Eph 2:8 says we are given faith as a gift from God.

It is by grace that we are saved.

For by grace you have been saved...

We are saved through faith.

...you have been saved through faith

And that [faith] is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Paul was an excellent writer. I find it hard to believe he would have made such a grammatical error as to have meant "that" to refer back to either "grace" or "saved".

Isn't it fascinating that he says, "record this day AGAINST you"? Why would he say that? Because if you back up to the beginning of Deut 30, you'll see that the LORD already knows they will choose death and cursing, and how God will respond by cursing them.

After all this happens and God has driven them to recall how this all came about, God says He will regather and have mercy on His people and...note this very carefully...

6 And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

So before God even gives them the so-called "choice", God has already told them what their choice will be, what the consequences will be, and what God's SOLUTION to the problem will be. And nowhere does God mention that the solution will be YET ANOTHER CHOICE to accept salvation. The solution is that God Himself will circumcise their hearts so that they will love God and live.

Now - if God already knew what their choice would be, and already knew that He would have to solve the problem by stepping in and circumcising their hearts (regenerating the elect), then one must ask why He gave them the "choice" in the first place!

Personally, I think the answer is obvious, but I'll stop there.