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Featured How do Baptists view I Pet 3:21

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Matt Black, Jul 10, 2012.

  1. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    Wisdom proves you wrong. For Jesus said Satan wanted to sift him as wheat. For Jesus said he prayed that Peter’s faith would not fail him. For Jesus said when you turn back. For Peter jumped into the water when he saw Jesus. For Jesus command Peter to look after his sheep and to follow him.

    The Word of God is wisdom. For it is obvious what the Word of God says. It is obvious that you do not see it.


    What do you and Biblicist not get about verbally abusing me when I debate?


    You pretend as if you always answer my questions. No, you do not. Since I see how much you would like to know the answer about Jesus and the Holy Spirit, I will tell you.


    I really do not care if you respond to my posts, unless you learn how to stop personally attacking.

    Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same.

    You are not God. Stop accusing Christians of things you claim to know of personally.

    How do you think Christian’s faith fail them?

    Give examples. Then tell me what they are to do when it happens.

    If people here could do what you do, and state whatever they want about someone else, then they would be breaking the rules as you do. Let someone say to you what you have said to me, and let us see how long they would last here.

    I post here about beliefs and doctrines, not to read how much of a sinner you think I am. I am not here for you to accuse me of sins you have no idea if I committed or not. I am not here for you to tell me I am not saved. If you cannot stop yourself because of the Word of God, then at least stop yourself according to the rules of the group.
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't listen to your "wisdom" Moriah. You are very confused on many doctrines. Wisdom does not come from confusion.
    Your misinterpretation of the Word of God is not wisdom.
    Peter was never reinstated. He never lost his salvation which is impossible to do.
    Here is the Apostle Peter, that great follower of Christ, a leader among the apostles, and you think he lost his faith possibly his salvation. This is truly unbelievable!
    Later on, Peter did become a shepherd. Jesus was the Great Shepherd, and Peter was one of his undershepherds that fed the flock of God. He commanded others to do the same thing.

    1 Peter 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
    3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
    4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
    It is not verbally abusing you to ask you to admit that you are wrong. You declared that the words Peter's Reinstatement were the Word of God. That was your defense. It was foolish and wrong. You won't admit that you were wrong. Just because it was a title put in the text by the NIV editors does not make it the inspired word of God. You still won't admit that you were wrong. You call it abuse. I call it pride. You need to repent.
    You pretend as if you always answer my questions. No, you do not. Since I see how much you would like to know the answer about Jesus and the Holy Spirit, I will tell you.

    I really do not care if you respond to my posts, unless you learn how to stop personally attacking.

    Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same.[/quote]
    If they are the same then why are you putting the importance of one ministry over the other. The disciples did not need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They had Jesus, right there in the flesh. Why would they need the Holy Spirit when they could walk and talk with God come in the flesh?! When Jesus would die, be resurrected, and then ascended back into heaven, then the Holy Spirit would come according to the promise of Jesus. He would take the place of the presence of Jesus. But for the time being Jesus was there in human form. They didn't need the Holy Spirit. They had Christ in physical form, a privilege that very few individuals ever had.
    Thus your interpretation of Scripture is flawed on this basis.
    Every time you get discouraged, depressed, look to yourself instead of God, take your eyes of Christ in any way for any reason, are impatient for an answer to prayer, etc. There is no Christian that goes through life perfectly, without sin, without failure, without ever taking their eyes of Christ. As you noted, even Peter took his eyes of Jesus momentarily and began to sink in the water. Are you greater than Peter??
    I just did.
    What rules did I break?
    It is not I that tells you, you are a sinner. The Bible does.
    Read Romans 3:23, and if that is not enough I will give you a dozen other.
    There is no person on earth without sin. That is fact. It is not breaking any rule. It is teaching the Word of God, which you need to apply to your own life. Perhaps you need to learn more of the doctrine of the depravity of man. That would be good for you to study wouldn't it? So would harmartiology.
     
  3. Moriah

    Moriah New Member

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    I speak the wisdom that comes from God. I am not confused.

    You only repeat what a man of a certain religion taught you. You repeat the same things teachers of your denomination say. You repeat what men have gone to seminary school to learn. You cannot understand what I say. I can show you scripture that says something plain and clear, but you still do not see it.


    Explain to me how people are blotted out of the book God’s book?

    Exodus 32:33 The LORD replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.


    Peter denied Jesus three times. Peter disowned Jesus three times.

    Matthew 26:33 But Peter said to Him, “Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away.” 34 Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” 35 Peter said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You.” All the disciples said the same thing too.

    What do you think Peter thought Jesus meant to cause him to say, “I will never fall away”?
    Does it sound to you like to fall away is a good thing? Falling away is one thing, and it is not good. However, to deny Jesus is another thing. We could say to fall away means to run and hide, but what can you say about denying Jesus? Does this sound more serious to you?

    You just told me in this one post alone that I do not listen, that I am confused, that I have no wisdom, that I am unbelievable, that I am a sinner, that I am wrong, that I am foolish, that I am in denial, that I am prideful, that I need to repent, that I am flawed, and some of these things you said to me quite a few times.

    I feel like a man with no control is speaking to me, a verbally abusive man, an accuser. What would your wife, kids, relatives, neighbors, and co-workers think of you if you spoke to them as you speak to me? If I spoke to you the way you speak to me, you would give me a little note saying I have an infraction for being rude.


    I am not putting the importance of one over the other. I said they were the same.
    Try to stay closer to what is said.


    And what happened when Jesus was not right there in the flesh next to them, like when Jesus was arrested? They scattered.



    Getting discouraged is not falling out of faith. Jesus could be troubled in the spirit. Is that a sin to you too?
    Getting depressed about something is not falling out of faith. Even Jesus cried.
    Getting inpatient when you do not have an answer is not falling out of faith.
    How would I look to myself instead of God?
    I do not take my eyes off Jesus.
    You need to speak for yourself. You do not know me. You need to stop making up sins that are not sins. Do not add to God’s word, for you nullify the word of God when you do so.




    Stop speaking for other Christians. You are not even in an errorless denomination, in my opinion, so how do you think you can judge me personally in any correct manner, when you cannot even make a correct judgment about which denomination to join. In my humble opinion that you encourage me to use here, and you set such an example.



    The Bible does not say I am a sinner. The Bible says I have been washed, that I am perfect and holy.

    I did not say no one has ever sinned. You need to accuse me falsely to make yourself feel better.
    When you come on and reply to me with a bunch of worthless personal attacks, I waste my time defending myself. You need to stop personally attacking me. I could not care less what you think of me personally. I answer to God.
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Then you need to repent for adding to the Word of God, when you adamantly say you didn't. You said the words "Peter reinstated" were the words of the Bible, when in fact they were the words of the NIV editors. They are not inspired at all. You will not retract your statement. You go on in your error, in the denial that the NIV editors have spoken like the pope speaks "ex cathedra" or in the place of God. You think that these words are inspired. You quote them as Scripture, whereas the Scripture nowhere says that Peter was reinstated. Only some foolish NIV editors said that. You need to repent of your foolishness. The words "Peter reinstated" are not found in the Bible. How long will it take for you to learn that?
    Look, in other thread you just called Targus a liar. He called on it, and said show me where I have lied and you couldn't. That makes you the liar, the false accuser--an expression you like to use. That is not being holy and perfect. You are not holy in your actions. You certainly are not perfect. You do not carry out the commands of Christ. You demonstrated your failure right there. You prove that you are a sinner every day right on this board. Your sin nature reveals itself.
     
  5. Wittenberger

    Wittenberger New Member

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    It is always amazing to me that Baptists/evangelicals believe in the simple, literal interpretation of the Bible...until it contradicts their doctrinal positions.

    When Paul and Silas told the Philippian jailer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, Lutherans (and I would bet Catholics, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox would agree) believe that verse in its simple, most literal meaning. We don't twist it, contort it, reinterpret it by saying, "Well, what Paul and Silas really meant here was, 'Believe and be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.'"

    We believe that the person who believes in Christ will be saved. Period. They don't have to wait until they are baptized to be saved. If they die before they are baptized they will go to heaven.

    But when Jesus Christ himself says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" we believe that literally too. When Ananias says to Saul, "Why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling upon the name of the Lord" we believe that literally too. When the apostle Peter says "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins" we don't start blaming the translators for poor translation, insisting that the "for" in that verse be translated "because of"!

    God doesn't need you to clarify what he says in his Word! He promised his Word would endure. Believe what God says, not what your theologians and pastors have told you to believe.

    Believe what God says, even if He sometimes confounds human logic and reason. Read the Bible with the faith of a child. That is the Lutheran position on the Bible!

    For more details go to: http://www.LutherWasNotBornAgain.com
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The question is not whether baptism saves, as the scriptures clearly says it does. The question is not whether baptism washes away sins, as the scriptures clearly says it does. However, the question is HOW does baptism save and wash away sins - literally or figuratively. The scriptues clearly says it does as a "FIGURE" - 1 Peter. 3:21.

    Moreover, the same can be said of the sacrficial and ceremonial system in the Old Testament. The language of redemption was always directly connected with sacrifices and ceremonial cleansings ("for sins" "for thy cleansing") however, Hebrews 10:1-4 informs it did not LITERALLY remit or wash away sins at all but only did in figure as a "shadow."

    Jesus illustrates this clearly in Luke 5:12-15 with the cleansing of the leper:

    12 ¶ And it came to pass, when he was in a certain city, behold a man full of leprosy: who seeing Jesus fell on his face, and besought him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
    13 And he put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean. And immediately the leprosy departed from him.
    14 And he charged him to tell no man: but go, and shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.


    He was LITERALLY cleansed "immediately"

    He was nevertheless told to go "offer for thy cleansing according as Moses commanded." This involved a sacrfice "for thy cleansing." Did he offer the sacrifice in order to be cleansed but because he had been cleansed? Both! He offered a sacrifice in order to be cleansed CEREMONIALLY or FIGURATIVELY because he had already been cleansed LITERALLY.

    Bottom line it was "for a testiomy unto them." Likewise with baptism and the Lord's Supper as they are New Testament counterparts to Old Testament ceremonial institutions.

    So it is very simple. When one believes they are saved LITERALLY. When one submits to baptism they are saved FIGURATIVELY. Scripture must be compare to scripture if truth is to be arrived at.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Couple of points here!

    Water baptism under the new Covevnat NEVER said to be the agent that grants us new birth, notr forgiveness of our sins etc

    So MUST interprete the bible based upon THAt fact!

    And the Greek itself many times shows us that the baptism is "in the name" of jesus, as that indicates that because we have already be saved by him, we than we are baptized in that name!
     
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