How do Catholics obey Jesus concerning Matthew 23:9?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Moriah, Jul 11, 2012.

  1. Moriah

    Moriah
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    How do Catholics obey this command of Jesus?

    Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

    I will tell you how I obey that command. I obey by not calling any Christian brother a ‘father.’

    Now please tell me how you obey Jesus’ command in Matthew 23:9.

    The question is a serious one that I really want to know.
     
  2. saturneptune

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    I always called my father Dad growing up. I have never called a pastor father. When I was in the Presbyterian Church, occassionally the term Reverend would be used. I usually call my present pastor Brother.

    I do not know how Catholics justify the term. I guess if you have the authority to forgive sins, you can use the title Father. It will just not come from these lips.

    The only Person that is worthy of our worship, adoration, and praise is God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Any created being is not worthy of worship, or terms like Father, or adjectives like good.
     
  3. targus

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    If you really want to know...

    Perhaps you should ask the question on a forum where Catholics are allowed to particpate.

    All of these anti-Catholic discussions on the Baptist Board where Catholics are not allowed to join seems to me to be nothing more than gossip.
     
    #3 targus, Jul 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2012
  4. Moriah

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    Thank you for the reply, saturneptune. I was a Catholic for many years, and I could not even imagine myself calling a priest 'father' again, now that I know the Truth.
     
  5. Moriah

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    There are Catholics here. I am speaking to them; however, I welcome all replies.
     
  6. Moriah

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    You got me thinking about something here when you said you would not even call another man ‘good.’ I, too, had a hard time when I would hear someone say such and such is a “good person.” However, when I read the Bible, and read where the author of Acts calls someone a "good man," it got me to thinking that maybe I did not understand Jesus in Mark 10:18.
    There was a time I did not even think we should say anyone did anything good, but these scriptures say different.

    Acts 9:36 In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas ), who was always doing good and helping the poor.

    Acts 10:33 So I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”

    Read in Acts 11:24 a man, Barnabas is called a good man.

    Acts 11:24 He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord.

    Romans 5:7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

    2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

    Philippians 4:14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles.

    1 Peter 2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

    Only God is good. I believe when someone is a good person, or anyone who does do anything good, that it is through God that they do it. People who want to be saved are not afraid to come to the light and give God glory for the good in their lives.
    The people who do good but love more the evil that they do do not come into the light.
    See John 3:21.
     
  7. targus

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    Playing the devil's advocate...

    When your children were born what did you put on the birth certificate in the space for "name of father"? Did you leave it blank?

    When you complete medical information forms that ask for family history what do you put for "father's" history? Do you leave it all blank?
     
  8. targus

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    Devil's advocate again...

    God commands us to honor our father and mother.

    Who then are we to honor in order to obey that comand?

    My mother and God?
     
  9. targus

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    Acts 7:1-2 Stephen calls the high priests "fathers".

    He also refers to "father Abraham".

    I guess he didn't get your memo?
     
  10. targus

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    Oppps...

    Acts 23:1 Paul says "My brothers and fathers..."

    Again missed your memo?
     
  11. Moriah

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    You are speaking about earthly fathers to their children. Jesus was speaking Spiritually.

    Jesus says we are all brothers. Do you call your earthly brother ‘father’? Do not call your spiritual brother ‘father’ either. That is how you obey the command of Jesus in call no one ‘father’.

    So, tell me how you obey Jesus in that command.
     
  12. targus

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    1 Corinthians 4:15 Paul refers to himself as "your father in Christ".

    Well, you're probalby starting to get my drift.

    How do you answer all of the examples from Scripture?
     
  13. targus

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    So Paul was disobeying?

    And Paul's inspired writing where he refers to himself as our "father in Christ" is also disobeying?

    So Paul's words are either "inspired and correct" or "wrong and disobedient".

    Which is it?
     
  14. Moriah

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    Not every man is a brother, and not every man is a father. However, there were people to whom Stephen spoke; they were brothers and fathers there. Stephen was before the Sanhedrin, the leaders in the Jewish religion were not all called ‘father’. Is that what you are suggesting?

    As for Stephen and others calling Abraham ‘father’, that was to Abraham, the father of many. Jesus is speaking in the New Testament, the New Covenant teaching us that we are all brothers.
     
  15. Michael Wrenn

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    Jesus said to call no man a spiritual father. That settles it for me. Calling someone "father" implies that that person has authority over you spiritually. No Christian has spiritual authority over any other.
     
  16. targus

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    Seriously???

    Stephen said "my brothers and fathers" because they were "somebody's" fathers?

    Stephen called Abraham "father" because Abraham had children?

    Really?

    That's what you're going to go with?
     
  17. Moriah

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    Paul was explaining that he was among the Apostles, one among the few people who gave the gospel message. Paul was not reading from books or letters about the gospel, nor was he being taught first by Peter and the others, but the Holy Spirit taught Paul, and had those letters and books written that we now read in the Bible.

    Paul, as a person who got the message before others, in this he was like a father for being before the others. However, Paul does not say to call him ‘father’, and there is nowhere in the Bible where anyone calls Paul ‘father’. I can give you scriptures that show the Apostles are called ‘brother’.

    The Bible has been written, and the Catholic priests did not receive the message like the Apostles. Jesus says not to call anyone father, that we are brothers.

    Now that I have answered your question, please tell me how Catholics obey Jesus in this command.
     
  18. Moriah

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    To that I say, Amen and Amen!
     
  19. Catalyst

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    If you take the verse as literal as most catholic bashers, who claim to be god's apologists do, calling your own father, father, is a sin. But obviously there are times calling someone father is appropriate, else the word FATHER wouldn't exist today in English for the same reasons, "Cursing" turned into CUSSING, which turned into mean something the bible doesn't teach anywhere. Language shifts...

    Paul was father, because he brought those people to Christ and was their spiritual leader. In that sense it's fine I'd think. They were treated as his little children, he was to bring them to maturity, from milk to meat, all the imagry is accurate. What would be the sin to calling Paul father?

    Now, the claim of Jesus, did he mean God was father like Paul was father? Did he mean God was father like your parent is father? There are two acceptable ways of using the word father.

    The offense wouldn't be in calling someone father, but in thinking someone was the type of father God is.

    I'd say, that is something akin to God being the father/creator of everything that is, the OMNI one. As long as you don't refer to anyone as if they were the creator of all it would be bad.

    In other words, do not take the lord's name in vain.

    Name.... funny word.... what did it mean to those people? They had meanings. The last name, the type of work they did, the focus in their life, they were born with a name, but earned a usable name as adults that befit them. MUch like being born a farmer and growing up to be a black smith, thus the name became smith. Mister Policeman..... Mister Smith...... and that is how that became a tradition.

    The issue I imagine is the Pope/Pater/Father. If not I'll answer it anyway.

    Their priests would be father same as Paul was father. If it's wrong to call Paul father then it's wrong to call the Priests father. If it's ok then it is ok, they do the same thing.

    The POPE, here is the reasoning there.

    God sent Jesus as Head of the church... God is the vine, Jesus the gardner.
    Jesus is head of the Church established and trained Apostles to get the church rolling.
    They had to train others to carry on the teaching and keep it pure and correct.
    Those had to in turn train others.
    They were growing, so they may train two or three or a dozen others, and send them out in the world.
    Timothy probably trained a coupla dozen for the town he was living in.
    The leader over that town, or area was the Bishop, a timothy type role that helped keep the area churches in line. Make sure their theology was right. Afterall the apostles wouldn't be here forever, they needed to make sure they had it right and kept it right.
    As the church grew the bishops in quantity grew. To keep them all in line you needed a hierchy, else you'd have 850,000 people screaming at the same time and no one to bring them to order.
    Thus you had a pope be formed.
    The Pope isn't a foreign concept, you could equate him to JAMES role in the Council of Jerusalem. James was the moderator over that council. James held the respect, and James made the call on what was to be done. He decided the resolution for the Church going forward, but all the "bishops" met with him and had their input and arguments. Thus James wasn't a sole power.

    Now, if you believe where a few are gathered HE will be there with them, then you can accept that the Spirit of God was there in that meeting, right?

    If the Bishops of rome meet, you can expect that they believe the Spirit of God is there with them, yes?

    If the Church, as Paul wrote in Ephesians 4 is to lead the people, something Rome does, baptists don't do, to works of service, vs theological bickering, then the church leads the people. The bishops lead the areas in guidance on how to lead the people. The pope chooses the directions like James did after hearing the input of the other bishops.

    If the Spirit is there, and the Church is Christ's body, and Christ is the head, and the head executes through the church, as it did through the apostles, and Paul wrote in Eph 4, then when the Spirit influences that meeting, when the Pope makes his judgement, and sits in that seat of authority, then His comments are from God. There is nothing illogical about that. It's firmly rooted in scripture.

    I don't think I agree with their conclusion, but heck, it sure does make sense.

    Compare it to baptist churches, the likes I attend, and most likely you, and definitely some of the sysops here, there is no authority, there is no teaching passed down from generation to generation. Each church has their OWN head of the church, thus from block to block they have different theologies. If they have different theologies at least ONE of them isn't led by the Spirit, but both will claim it, and fight all the way to hell claiming it's them. But one HAS to be wrong, of the two.

    In Rome's belief, the way the Church rolls, they all roll. They put faith in the Church, which relies on the Head to guide it, and the people are taught to do the works of service that makes them as mature as Christ was on earth, according to Paul in Ephesians 4. Please think this through before you respond. If I'm not here, you know where to find me.
     
  20. targus

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    The 800 pound gorilla in the room is still Paul calling himself "your father in Christ".

    I'm pretty sure that Paul wasn't the biological father of every person at the church of Corinth.

    And the words "in Christ" sound somewhat spritual.

    So is Paul writing heresy in Scripture?

    (I wrote this while Moriah was addressing this point - my wife is calling me to dinner - be back later)
     
    #20 targus, Jul 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2012

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