How do the SDA Regard Col 2:15/16 and hebrews 4?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
    Colossians 2:15

    Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem nto have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because othey were not united by faith with those who listened.1 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

    p“As I swore in my wrath,

    ‘They shall not enter my rest,’”

    although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: q“And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said,

    r“They shall not enter my rest.”

    6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news sfailed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

    t“Today, if you hear his voice,

    do not harden your hearts.”

    8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God2 would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also urested from his works as God did from his.

    11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so vthat no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For wthe word of God is living and xactive, ysharper than any ztwo-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and adiscerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And bno creature is hidden from his sight, but all are cnaked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

    NEITHER tells us that we are under the old Sabbath system as they were under the old Covenant!
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Matt 7 pre-cross Jesus said "Judge not that ye be not judged" - In Col 2 Paul says "let no one act as your judge".

    The moral command does not change pre-cross vs post cross.

    And the shadow Sabbaths of Lev 23 (the annual festivals) are the subject of Col 2 "Shadows of things to come" because in those animal sacrifices there was the prediction of a future event to be fulfilled by Christ. Thus in 1Cor 5 Paul says "Christ our PASSOVER has been sacrificed". Passover is one of the annual Sabbaths mentioned in Lev 23.

    In Col 2 we have this statement about our "certificate of debt" nailed to the cross
    13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

    This is the Gospel for as Paul says in Romans 6:23 "the wages of sin is death". The death of Christ for us - was payment in our place - paying the debt that we owe.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hebrews 4 tells us that the GOSPEL was preached to us JUST as it was to them (Israel in the wilderness) also.

    1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.




    The Gal 1:6-11 ONE Gospel in all ages. (I will start a thread on this ONE Gospel subject of scripture.)
     
    #3 BobRyan, Apr 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2013
  4. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your taking verses out of context has reached a ridiculous rate to support your desire to worship on Saturday and continue to sacrifice doves and goats. In addition, you have elevated the issue of when to worship to a level that determines ones eternal destiny. You are the master at making a mountain out of a mole hill. If you will read Matthew 28:1, that will answer all your questions about the day we set aside to honor Jesus Christ, aside from everyday as it should be.

    On top of that, your desire to prove that we as Christians can still speak in tongues, interpret tongues, raise the dead, heal (which God does in specific cases, but you do not) is comical. The Bible is quite clear on the issue. Many posters have given you good solid Scrpiture why. Even if you were correct, it does not merit the level you have raised the issue to. If you spent as much time telling others about Jesus as you do worrying about magic acts, phases of the moon, and Jewish holidays, lots more would have heard the Gospel.

    The SDA, charasmatic, Pentecostal, holiness movement is dangerous to the work of the Lord. IMO it is time for you to move on to a SDA board.
     
  5. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you for pegging this guy. Over the past several weeks I have come to the conclusion that the SDAs and associated cults (Pentecostal, holiness, and charasmatic) are more danger than the RCC, on the level with the Mormons and JWs.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Heb 4 (NASB)

    3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,“As I swore in My wrath,
    They shall not enter My rest,”

    although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.



    4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;



    5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.”



    6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
    “Today if you hear His voice,
    Do not harden your hearts.”


    8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that.

    9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

    =======================================

    1. The "rest" that Joshua may have been thought to give - was the rest in Canaan. And those who did not enter the rest due to unbelief (as noted in Chapter 3 and Chapter 4) were the Israelites that died in the wilderness.

    2. The new day - "Today" as a day of rest is the one offered in David's Psalms - to all of Israel - long before Christ. Psalms 95:7.

    In Hebrews 4 Paul only speaks about the Psalms 95:7 day of rest as being offered in addition to the rest of entering Canaan which would have come through Joshua.

    But as many Bible scholars have note the rest in Psalms 95 comes long before the cross. David did not say in Psalms 95 "some future day - many centuries from now - if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts". Rather David says at the time of Psalms 95 "TODAY".

    There is no indication at all that in the days of Psalms 95 the people of God stopped keeping the Creation Sabbath of Genesis 2:1-3. The Sabbath so strongly affirmed by the Baptist Confession, the Westminster Confession, D.L. Moody, Andy Stanley, R.C. Sproul and others as being given to Adam.

    So this is not even an SDA specific question - yet.

    And of course in Heb 4 Paul says that only "some" did not enter - - "6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it,"

    Indeed in Heb 11 Paul provides a whole host of examples of those people in the OT that entered God's rest under the "ONE" Gospel of Gal 1:6-11 and Heb 4:2.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, Apr 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2013
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    "sola name calling" again??

    I prefer "sola scriptura" because I find it in Acts 17:11.

    But it is a free will universe that God has created so if you wish to settle for "sola name calling" so be it - for scripture says "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ" 2Cor 5.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    The term "sola name calling" makes no sense, but then again, neither do your explanations for any of the verses you use, as they are either out of context or designed to support your denominations theology. Yes, I will stand before the judgement seat of Christ, and guess what, He is not going to ask me about why I went to church on Sunday or failed to raise the dead or receive a message in tongues.
     
  9. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,892
    Likes Received:
    0
    To make worship on Saturday as central to the Gospel seems to be legalism in the extreme, to me.
     
  10. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    I want to comment from the Messianic Perspective


    Col 2
    14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;



    === > What was blotted out was the Letter of Accusation against us, not the whole Law.
    For example, Deut 32:34 is a typical storage of the accusation and vengeance by God. Such letter of Accusation was destroy by the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ.

    15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
    16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
    17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


    Messianic Jews interpret this passage as keeping the Sabbath so natural and important and well known and therefore they should keep it holy.It goes without saying.


    I believe Romans 14:5 applies to Sabbath, but historically Gathering on Sabbath dominated in Eastern Roman Empire until Laodicean Council in 364.

    Sunday gathering may be mentioned by Justin Martyr first in 147AD, then Constantine decreed Sunday as the Holy Day for the Holy Sun in 321 AD.
     
  11. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Did Early Church gather together on Sundays?
    (1) Acts 13: 14
    But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and sat down.

    (2) Acts 13:42
    And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath

    Why didn’t they ask Paul to let them know the meeting place next day, on Sunday?

    (3) Acts 13:44
    And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    Why didn’t they gather together on Sundays?

    (4) Acts 16:13
    And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
    Apparently the Apostle Paul, the tent-maker must have taken off on the Sabbath and spent time for prayers.
    Why don’t we find any verse supporting the meeting on Sundays?
    (5) Acts 17:2
    And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

    (6) Acts 18:4
    And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

    Even Greeks gathered on Saturdays? Why didn’t they have a separate meeting on Sundays?
     
  12. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Verses brought by Sunday Worship supporters
    ( A ) 1 COR 16:2- KJV
    Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. (KJV)
    1 COR - Darby
    On [the] first of [the] week let each of you put by at home, laying up [in] whatever [degree] he may have prospered, that there may be no collections when I come.
    This verse can be interpreted as meaning the Donation should be saved AT HOME every Sunday.
    Why doesn’t it mention that the Assembly should collect and store the donation on Sundays?

    1 COR 16:2 – Another Translation
    Every one of the Sabbaths let every one of you put by himself by laying up as much as he has prospered, that there may be no collections when I come.

    1 COR 16:2 - TR


    κατὰμίανσαββάτωνἕκαστοςὑμῶνπαρ᾽ἑαυτῷτιθέτωθησαυρίζωντιἂνεὐοδῶταιἵναμὴὅτανἔλθωτότελογίαιγίνωνται

    Σαββατων can be Plural Sabbaths or Week ( from the sabbath to the next Sabbath)
    With equal accuracy, key words of the first 3 words can be interpreted as
    Every one of the Sabbaths (For example, on one of the sabbaths of each month )


    This doesn’t teach that the Collection was made at the Churches on Sundays.
    - It was saved at home, by each person ( Para Eauto), not at Chapels. This proves rather the Saints stayed at home on Sundays!
    - It could be Sabbaths as well.

    ( B ) Acts 20:7

    ἘνδὲτῇμιᾷτῶνσαββάτωνσυνηγμένωντῶνμαθητῶντοῦκλάσαιἄρτονΠαῦλοςδιελέγετοαὐτοῖςμέλλωνἐξιέναιτῇἐπαύριονπαρέτεινέντετὸνλόγονμέχριμεσονυκτίου

    This is the typical expression of the first day of the week as we read Luke 24:1.
    But it can be interpreted as follows too:
    On the one of the Sabbaths, On a certain Sabbath Day.
    If it was on the first day of the week, does it mean that
    - Did Corinthian Assemblies gather on Saturday morning and then continue to have sermons and Lord’s Supper even in the evening of Saturday which is already the first day of the week according to Jewish calendar? Or

    - Did they gather on Sunday and Paul continue to preach the Gospel even until the late night? In this case Preaching in the evening of the Sunday means the second day of the week because Jewish day starts from the even of the day since God created the universe in darkness first.

    Another question about this verse is whether they had the Lord’s Supper after the sermons.
    Usually Lord’s Supper is commemorated first, then the Sermons follow .
    Especially, the Corinthian believers gathered there in order to break the bread, but they spend much time for the sermon till night? Why didn’t they have the Supper first?
    The word used for breaking here isΚλαω verb which is mostly used for Breaking Bread of the Lord Supper as we read Acts 2:46 which shows Breaking Bread ( κλωντεσ αρτον) separately from Partaking the Food (μετελαμβανον Τροφησ)

    However, we must know that the Klao verb can be used for the eating of the Food as well as we read Mt 14.

    Matthew 14: 19

    καὶκελεύσαςτοὺςὄχλουςἀνακλιθῆναιἐπὶτοὺςχόρτουςκαὶλαβὼντοὺςπέντεἄρτουςκαὶτοὺςδύοἰχθύαςἀναβλέψαςεἰςτὸνοὐρανὸνεὐλόγησενκαὶκλάσαςἔδωκεντοῖςμαθηταῖςτοὺςἄρτουςοἱδὲμαθηταὶτοῖςὄχλοις

    And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to [his] disciples, and the disciples to the multitude.

    So, what we can say from a neutral point of view is that Acts 20:7 cannot be used for proving that the Early Church celebrated the Lord’s Supper on Sundays, because that verse is open to many kinds of interpretation.
     
    #12 Eliyahu, Apr 27, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  13. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    ( C ) Rev 1:10
    I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    Who is simply Lord when it is mentioned in connection with a certain day of the week?
    The word < Lord > without mentioning Jesus Christ can simply mean Jehovah in the OT as we read here:
    Acts 2
    16 but this is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel,
    17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, [that] I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your elders shall dream with dreams;
    18 yea, even upon my bondmen and upon my bondwomen in those days will I pour out of my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
    19 And I will give wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
    20 the sun shall be changed to darkness and the moon to blood, before the great and gloriously appearing day of [the] Lord come.
    21 And it shall be that whosoever shall call upon the name of [the] Lord shall be saved.
    Joel 2
    28 And it shall come to pass afterwards [that] I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.
    29 Yea, even upon the bondmen and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit.
    30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    31 The sun shall be changed to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come.
    32 And it shall be that whosoever shall call upon the name of Jehovah shall be saved: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as Jehovah hath said, and for the residue whom Jehovah shall call.
    So, we can notice the Lord in NT is often the translation of Jehovah in OT
    In OT the Day of Jehovah is used for the day of Judgment ( Isaiah 13:6, 9, Zech 14:1,..)
    The following verses are useful to understand which day was meant by Lord’s Day:
    Exodus 20:10
    But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
    Leviticus 23:3
    Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, a holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
    Ezekiel 20:16
    Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols.
    Ezekiel 20:20
    And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the Lord your God.

    Therefore Lord’s Day in Rev 1:10 is more likely to be interpreted as the Day of Jehovah, the Sabbath of Jehovah!
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4

    Are you speaking in agreement with the Westminster confession, the Baptist confession, Andy Stanley, R.C. Sproul when they say that all Ten Commandments are still binding on Christians today - or are you saying that they made a huge mistake?

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    No Bob, he is speaking of Matthew 28:1, our Scripture authorization for worship on Sunday. Is that hard to understand? Not only do you misunderstand the Lord's Day, you have no concept of the purpose of the law.
     
  16. Thomas Helwys

    Thomas Helwys
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,892
    Likes Received:
    0
    I prefer to go by scripture instead of what someone says about scripture, especially some Calvinists or Calvinist confession, Calvinism also being legalism in the extreme.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4


    That quote above is not a quote of Matt 28:1.

    Nor does Matt 28:1 say that we should keep week-day-1 holy.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4


    Far be it from me to argue in favor of Calvinism.

    But in the example above from D.L. Moody and others - the issue is not Calvinism - the issue is their statement on the Ten Commandments given to Adam in Eden and still applicable to the saints today such that as James 2 says "he who is guilty of one - is guilty of all".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    "God” “by the Glory of the Father” by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead”, “thus … by the Son … of the Seventh Day spake : And God the day The Seventh Day, _FROM_" - 'apo' - all his works, rested" ...
    'Apo' being source- or cause-emphatic the text actually says, "God the day The Seventh Day, BY / THROUGH / IN / WITH all his works, rested".
    Therefore, because God's "WORK" which He "wrought" / "accomplished" / "established" / "finished" "by the Son ... in these last days" is the RESURRECTION of Christ from the dead, Christ’s RESURRECTION is God's "REST"—“the REST of God” which Hebrews 4 as well as all New Testament Scripture speak of.
    Since God’s ‘work’ when He redeemed Israel from the depths of the Red Sea was his ‘rest’ of and on “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD”, so God’s “work” “when He RAISED Christ from the dead”, was his ‘rest’ of and on “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD”.
    Only difference is as Antitype met type in Jesus' Resurrection, God's Rest on and of the Seventh Day Sabbath was perfected and finally and totally "blessed", and "sanctified", and "wrought", or "FINISHED", or "ESTABLISHED" forever.
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    Sunday-worshippers refuse "to 'keep' the Sabbath Day's-rest"—they refuse to accept the REAL Scripture that “a Sabbatism” which “God THUS … IN THESE LAST DAYS … BY THE SON … CONCERNING THE SEVENTH DAY … SPAKE … REMAINS VALID FOR THE [NT] PEOPLE OF GOD … BECAUSE Jesus had given them REST”—and then think they are holy and 'special' for denying it.
    “A Sabbatism—a keeping [holy] of the Sabbath DAY—remains BECAUSE [‘ara’] Jesus had given them Rest”—God’s Rest, IN AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST.
    “A Sabbatism—a keeping [holy] of the Sabbath DAY—REMAINS [‘apoleipetai’] because Jesus had given them Rest”—God’s Rest, IN AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. ‘Apoleipetai’ – ‘apo’ + ‘leipoh’//‘leipos’, “remains”// ‘finally’, ‘henceforth’.
    ‘Apo’—source-emphatic!
    By two things therefore, 1) by the STRONG Adverbial Particle of logical inference and natural consequence, ‘ara’, plus, 2) by ‘apo’ with source-emphatic referential meaning combined into “REMAINS THEREFORE VALID”, Hebrews 4:8,9 tells WHY “a keeping [holy] of the Sabbath Day remains (obligatory) for God’s People [the Church of Jesus Christ]” and it is : “BECAUSE JESUS HAD GIVEN THEM REST”.
    The Christian “SABBATH THEREFORE”, is, “THE SEVENTH DAY God THUS … IN THESE LAST DAYS … BY THE SON … CONCERNING …SPAKE.”
    Sunday-worshippers refuse, deny, despise, degrade and deface this Scripture—as its TRUTH—and then think they are holy and 'special' for it.

     

Share This Page

Loading...