How do you explain these verses?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Frenchy, Mar 18, 2006.

  1. Frenchy

    Frenchy
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    DEUTURONOMY 7:6, "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, the Lord your God has CHOSEN you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." Israel was elect.


    MATTHEW 24: 22, "Unless those days be cut short, no life would have been saved. , But for the sake of the ELECT, THE CHOSEN, those days shall be cut short." Who are the elect? The believers. Verse 24, "False Christs, false prophets will arise, will show great signs and wonders so as to mislead if possible even the ELECT, THE CHOSEN, the believers." It is a term for believers, for Christians verse
    31, "When He sends forth His angels with a great trumpet at the Second Coming, they will gather together HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

    LUKE 18:7 says, "Now shall not God bring about justice for HIS ELECT who cry to Him day and night and will He delay long over them?"

    ROMANS 8:33 "Who shall bring a charge against GOD'S ELECT?"

    COLOSSIANS 3:12, "And so as those who have been ELECT OF GOD, CHOSEN OF GOD, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion," and so forth. You've been CHOSEN OF GOD to be holy and beloved. He determined to set His love on you and me for no reason of ours at all, but strictly of His own free choice. The elect of God, that's who we are.

    2 TIMOTHY 2:10, "For this reason, Paul says, I endure all things in my ministry for the sake of those who are CHOSEN that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus." I am doing my evangelistic ministry to bring the gospel to the ELECT...the chosen. Titus, when Paul writes that letter he couldn't say it anymore straight-forward. "Paul, a bond servant of God and an Apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those CHOSEN OF GOD."

    2 JOHN, describes the church as the chosen lady, the elect lady, 2 John 1; 2 John 13, the children of your CHOSEN sister greet you. Two churches, both elect.

    PETER says, "You are a CHOSEN race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession." You are a chosen race. You are a Christian because you are chosen to be one by God.

    ACTS 15:14, "Simeon, or Peter, has related how...this is the Council of Jerusalem...how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a PEOPLE FOR HIS NAME." God's whole plan is to take out a people, to choose a people.

    MATTHEW chapter 20 You have a parable here, the Kingdom of Heaven, like a land owner, went out in the morning to hire labors for his vineyard. He agreed with the laborers for a denarius, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out the third hour, saw others standing idle in the marketplace, went through the process, hired them....hired them...hired them...hired them. [/b]Selected them[/b], the whole parable all the way down to the bottom, he picked out who he wanted and he rewarded them with eternal life, that's the essence of the parable. Very simple. He selected them. Called them into his service. Sent them out to serve. Rewarded them fairly, faithfully, generously. That is a picture of election.

    JOHN 15, Jesus said it to His disciples, "You did not choose Me but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give it you." You didn't choose Me, I chose you.

    JOHN 17:9, He says of Christians, praying to the Father does our Lord, "I ask on their behalf," this is the high priestly prayer of Christ, "I do not ask on behalf of the world but of those whom Thou hast given Me." The Father chose us and gave us to Christ as a love gift, for they are Thine.

    ACTS chapter 13: 48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, that is the gospel message, they began rejoicing and glorifying the Word of the Lord and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." The chosen believed. Those appointed to eternal life believed.

    ROMANS 9:14. God is talking about choosing. He says, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." God made His choice. Verse 14, "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God is there? May it never be." Me gennetos, in the Greek, no, no, no. It's...it's not injustice, for He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion," which is to say I will do precisely what I want to do. Verse 16, look at this, "So then it, salvation, does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy." Sovereign mercy. And somebody in verse 19 says, "Well then how can He find fault, For who will resist his will?

    ROMANS 11: 5, "In the same way then as in the case of the prophet Elijah and seven thousand men who didn't bow the knee to Baal, in the same way then there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's choice." God's choice.

    1 CORINTHIANS 1: 9, "God is faithful through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son." Your salvation was a direct work of God. He called you into fellowship with His Son.

    EPHESIANS 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world." When did it happen? When were we chosen? Before we were born. Before anybody was born. Before there was a world we were chosen.

    1 THESSALONIANS 1:4. "We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayer, I look at your life and I see...in verse 3...your work of faith, your labor of love, your steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, knowing, brethren, beloved by God His choice of you."

    2 THESSALONIANS 2 :13, "We should always give thanks to God for you, we shouldn't thank you, we should thank God, "Brethren, beloved by the Lord." Isn't that good? "Because God has chosen you from the beginning."

    2 TIMOTHY 1:9, "God who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and gace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.”

    2 TIMOTHY 2:10 , Paul says, "In my ministry I endure all things," "For the sake of those whose name has been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain."

    REVELATION 17: 8, "And those who dwell on the earth will wonder whose name has not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." And again we are told in a backhanded way that Christians are those whose names have been written in the Book of Life from beginning, from eternity, from the foundation of the world.

    REVELATION 17:14, "These will wage war against the Lamb, that is the host of the Antichrist, and the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of Lords and King of Kings and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful." We're the chosen.

    REVELATION 20, Final judgment, Great White Throne, "If anyone's name was not found written in the Book of Life he was...what?...thrown in the lake of fire." When were names put in the book? From before the foundation of the earth.

    LUKE 4, Jesus in this marvelous synagogue event in Nazareth, opened the book of the prophet Isaiah, stood up in the synagogue, opened the book, read it. This is what He read, verse 18, and here was a prophecy that He was fulfilling right out of Isaiah 61. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor, He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are downtrodden to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord.


    ISAIAH 55:8 and 9, the Scripture says of God, "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord, for as the heavens are higher than the earth so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." We are in no position as fallen creatures to determine whether what God does is just, right or fair.

    ROMANS 11:33 the Apostle writes, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God, how unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways for who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has become His counselor?" You've stepped out of bounds when you say that God does anything that isn't fair.


    edited (personal names are not permitted in the title of the thread)

    [ March 18, 2006, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]
     
  2. Gina B

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    Elected to what?
    Why elected?

    For example, if Israel was elected to salvation, why weren't all who lived in Israel saved?

    Please quit trying to defend something I believe in by using verses that don't fit. It makes ME look stupid. [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Doing a google search on all the verses that use the word "elect" does not equal knowledge on the topic. At least look into the verses a bit before you use them!
     
  3. Brother Bob

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    Frenchy:
    You were none of those until you were "born again"

    John, chapter 15

    19": If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    So at one time they belonged to the world and then they were chosen out of the world. Seems to me they were once among the "lost" and then they were among the "elect". That doesn't just compare to being the "elect" before the foundation of the world.
     
  4. pinoybaptist

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    Try this for size, Bob:

    According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    Ephesians 1:4

    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8 (Those that will worship the antichrist worship him because they were not elect from before the foundation of the world, their names were not written in the lamb's book before the foundation of the world, they do not hear the Shepherd's voice because they are not His sheep).

    The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Rev. 17:8 (same thing. they worship the beast because they are not God's people).
     
  5. pinoybaptist

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    All are born under sin. All were conceived in sin. All are under condemnation. All are born in enmity with God.
    All includes the elect.
    However, the elect wherever they are, whoever they are, whenever they existed chronologically, have all been redeemed already.
    None are yet to be redeemed.
    And since all have been redeemed already, purchased and paid for with the blood of the Lamb, none will be lost (no thanks to their theology, creed, conduct, or the faithfulness of any preacher or pastor) because it is Christ who died for them, who rose for them, who intercedes for them.
    All will be regenerated in due time by the Holy Spirit according to the Holy Spirit's choosing and timing.
     
  6. donnA

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  7. Frenchy

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    Chosen from the begining of CREATION to be his ELECT. Not a foreknowledge but...specifically CHOSEN. How do you explain that???

    2 THESSALONIANS 2 :13, "We should always give thanks to God for you, we shouldn't thank you, we should thank God, "Brethren, beloved by the Lord." Isn't that good? "Because God has chosen you from the beginning."

    2 TIMOTHY 1:9, "God who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.

    2 TIMOTHY 2:10 , Paul says, "In my ministry I endure all things," "For the sake of those whose name has been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain."

    REVELATION 17: 8, "And those who dwell on the earth will wonder whose name has not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." And again we are told in a backhanded way that Christians are those whose names have been written in the Book of Life from beginning, from eternity, from the foundation of the world.
     
  8. Frenchy

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    You all haven't adiquitly answered the question on how God's word shows he choose us before creation individual not based on anything other than his good purpose and pleasure.2 TIMOTHY 1:9, "God who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.
    not based on our choosing him, or anything we have done. JOHN 15, Jesus said it to His disciples, "You did not choose Me but I chose you and appointed you".
     
  9. Brother Bob

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    22": Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

    "23": I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

    "24": Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

    "25": In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    "4": For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

    What happened if Isreal were his Elect and how did you get in?

    What happened if Isreal were his Elect and how did you get in?

    You would be preaching a good sermon if Jesus had not of come.

    We could post all day and you are not going to persuade me nor I you sure hope his mercy covers us both and that I became part of his elect when he broke down the middle wall of partition and made a way for me for I was at one time:

    "11": Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    "12": That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    What happened, how did you get in?
     
  10. bapmom

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    Why ever was the Calvinist vs. Arminian Forum shut down? It seems like this discussion just goes round and round and round and round and round and.....well you get the point........right?

    Talk about something else.....Please!
     
  11. Frenchy

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    God choose Isreal but not all Isrealites were Saved, they still had to get saved the same way we do by FAITH. God not only choose Isreal to be his people but he also choose us as well before the foundations of the world.

    God's choosing of Isreal was to have a people who were after his own heart, a people who were SET APART, who were different and who worshipped him the one and only TRUE God. And to bring his word into the world, and to bring Jesus through the line of David. When Isreal rejected his sin offering and only son Jesus that invitation was extended now to the gentiles, even gentiles in the old testament were saved if they too BELIEVED like Rahab.
     
  12. Frenchy

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    bapmom...

    Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8). This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-Calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

    This i believe to be true
    It is called a mystery, a Paradox one which MAN will never figure out or understand
     
  13. Brother Bob

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    Pinoybaptist


    All are born under sin. All were conceived in sin. All are under condemnation. All are born in enmity with God.
    All includes the elect.
    However, the elect wherever they are, whoever they are, whenever they existed chronologically, have all been redeemed already.
    None are yet to be redeemed.
    And since all have been redeemed already, purchased and paid for with the blood of the Lamb, none will be lost (no thanks to their theology, creed, conduct, or the faithfulness of any preacher or pastor) because it is Christ who died for them, who rose for them, who intercedes for them.
    All will be regenerated in due time by the Holy Spirit according to the Holy Spirit's choosing and timing.

    I ask you sir, you are not an Isrealite, how did you get in?

    "11": Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    "12": That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    It seems you believe that The Death of Jesus was "vanity". It seems you believe God sent his son here to die for absolutely nothing if all were already chosen and all have already been saved

    Sure all are born as in Adam but you think it is sin if you don't know right from wrong? Not me. Ever scripture you quote you put a spin on it as if that was the whole bible but you have to take it all and The Jesus I believe in has mercy on all and stands with open arms saying "come unto me, and be ye saved".

    Why, paid for by the blood of the Lamb if they were prechosen as his "elect"?????

    Frenchy:

    Isreal are God's chosen people not you or I until we repented and believed that Jesus is the Christ and were born again. Then and only then did we become a Jew inwardly.

    all is vanity, all is vanity
     
  14. whatever

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    Well, it seems like someone is always talking about what is wrong (or right) with BJU or Jack Hyles or Harry Potter or C. S. Lewis or Billy Graham or preachers wearing jeans or music styles or whether so-and-so is saved or not, or a hundred other debates that I find terribly uninteresting. But I find theology very interesting and I enjoy discussing it, especially with those with whom I disagree. I do wish there were still a separate forum where we could debate without bothering anyone else but unfortuntely there's not.

    So, do you think I'm really saved? :D
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    Helen:

    I said at the beginning that this was a good post for it got a lot of hits. Well, I am new to this board and I am finding out that this is probably not the first time this subject has been on here. Seems this board is made up mostly of Calvinists and us (free-willers) as they call us. I love the Freewills but I am not one of them. No wonder it gets so many hits and always wondered how they believed in England and Ireland, sure hope all don't believe like the ones on here. [​IMG]
     
  16. Frenchy

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    Brother Bob i am not a sir but a miss.
    your arguement still doesn't change the fact that God choose both Isrealites and Gentiles to be HIS before the foundations of the world not based on US, but for his good pleasure and purpose!!!
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    Sorry Frenchy:

    I am new here.

    Not Gentiles for they were without God and had no hope in the world, but He turned unto a people who was not his people, that kinda lets out the elect don't you think?

    "25": In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    wonder what happened?

    You have made excuses for those of Isreal who didn't make it.
     
  18. whatever

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    "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel ..."

    Romans chapter 9 is what happened.
     
  19. Frenchy

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    they didn't make it duhhh because they were not chosen and did not believe, like I mentioned before not all Isrealites were chosen idividually to make it but as a NATION they were chosen to be set apart.
    key word NATION...example we are a "christian family" but not everyone IN our family will become a CHRISTIAN.
     
  20. Brother Bob

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    Frenchy and Whatever:

    "25": In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

    It says "all the seed of Israel". I have 3 children and they not all the same but they all mine. ;) ;)
     

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