Featured How Do you feel About "Full Gospel" baptist churches?

Well,

To quote someone else, you'd have to buy the book. My complete ministry and testimony is in that 300+ page book. Sorry, but it would take too long to explain 46 years of testimony in this small space.

Again, Yeshua, I am first saved, and after that God has led me on a wonderful journey. Hasn't He done the same for you??? Are we not supposed to grow, daily if at all possible; be available for Him [which is when He bestows gifts]; enrich and stretch ones faith [which is the only way God can and will give gifts to be used for His Kingdom], as He certainly couldn't and wouldn't grant gifts to children if they didn't believe in those gifts or questioned those gifts from the beginning?

So, in a nut shell, I've been growing. But, I caution you to not forget, in order to grow in Him, I first had to be saved, at which time my name was written and recorded in the Lamb's Book of Life. And the last time I checked it was written in His blood, not in pencil [which can be erased] or ink [which can be whited out]. I am wonderously saved, and that salvation can not and will not be taken from me.

To share with you what I've personally accomplished since Christmas Eve 1966 would be bragging [in sorts], so let's just say that I've been praviately and quietly about the Masters business, here on earth.

So, to, let's say, throw it back in your court, "What have you experienced and done since salvation, as per your own testimony [which I have yet to hear]?"

 

If we are to believe that the speaking of tongues occurred @ Pentecost (which I think we all do), then we must also believe that there was a gust of wind and divided tongues of fire that appeared to those who were in that room.

All were able to understand each other that day. It was a very special day in Christian history.

Yes I believe in that miracle. It happened then.

Some believe that the miracle of "speaking in tongues" continues. I will go along with this as soon as I hear that gust of wind and see those divided tongues of fire that accompany this "ability-to-understand" miracle.

No disrespect. Just saying that Pentecost, in my opinion, was a one time miracle that occurred in the event recorded in Acts 2.

 

No Offense Taken...

...but I did hear that gust of wind on Christmas Eve 1966. However, I didn't receive my prayer language until 20 years later. Now, understand me on this. I do not insist or condemn the use of or non belief in, tongues. It is not up to me to judge. I was highly opinionated on the subject for 20 years, but one day I was humbled, and saw something and heard something that was without a doubt of God.

AGAIN, you'd have to be there. I guess those in the upper room were seen as strange and even fanatical to those who were not there. In fact, I would imagine they were looked upon something like those who do not understand some of the gifts He gives, today.

It is a thing that has to be experienced. And by the way, I was alone when this happened. There was no one pushing or insisting I accept this. In fact, almost like Pau on the orad to Damascus, I was preaching against the gifts, as often as possible, and one day, I was struck down and humbled.

I don't expect anyone on this board to understand, unless you have had it happen to you.

It hasn't changed who I am. I still believe what I always believed, but my eyes and heart were opened just a wee bit wider than they once were.

To quote you, my brother...."No disrespect [or judgment] meant!"

Remember, we all have been granted certain gifts. Not one gift is any better or less than another. I do not feel superior to anyone, nor do I feel embarrassed in front of those who do not understand what I have. We are all in this walk together. And each gift is used to uplift the Lord.

If you do not understand, I suspect that there were some believers on the Day of Pentecost, who were not in the upper room, who felt as you. They were waiting for the gush of wind, and it had come and gone, and only for those in that room, did the gift settle in.

Again, if I am being judged because of what I believe was a visiting of the Holy Spirit. Then so be it. I am certainly not judging any of you for not having the gift. We are all part of a great body, and each part has different duties and different gifts to make their particular part of the body function. However, like Paul said, each part is as important as the other. That is how I feel, too!

If you see me in a different light, than I guess that is your problem, because I don't see me in a different light. I am operating in the light of my Lord and Savior. :jesus:

 

Hello Jomarc,
Welcome to the BB. You have judged correctly because you have seen what the scripture says. We are always called to go to the scriptures alone for truth.
What can we say of these claims made by random individuals, of special appearances, visions, just like the Apostolic sign gifts? They seem to be for the most part nice persons and willing to share their personal anecdote.
Should we just....go with the flow.....not question anyone's claim?

Let's take this thread as an example;

A person makes such a claim...some claim to hear a voice, see an angel,have an "outer body experience"...etc.

Are we to personally examine every case,and then reconstruct everything since that time? Or to follow the sure word of God?

The person can be sincere...I had a woman tell me the angel Moroni appeared in her living room to tell her God wants her to "know" that the book of Mormon was another testament of Jesus Christ.:laugh:

The signs of an apostle were given for a reason....to keep us from these stories.

The second claim....somehow related to the first...pre-supposes that the church has had it wrong for 1900 years,and the current error is in reality the "truth".

QUOTE]Now, understand me on this. I do not insist or condemn the use of or non belief in, tongues. It is not up to me to judge.[/QUOTE]

This kind of statement is to be rejected.There is truth[scripture] and there is error. We are to make righteous judgements jn 7:24

A person if free in America to express whatever they want.We are free to reject it also. This kind of statement suggests that perhaps others who have not been humbled....will not quite understand- this also seeks to make the random claim valid....you do not judge me,I will not judge you,
but then seeks to portray it in the "humble way".

No.....not really because God's word determines the issue.This reasoning could be used by anyone ,and indeed has been....

Oral Roberts claimed to have spoken with and seen a 900ft tall jesus
He was told all his followers needed to send in $144.00 in one lump sum payment, or 12 monthly installments:smilewinkgrin:

No...I did not have to be there....not when scripture speaks to it.These claims are a direct attack on the sufficency of scripture.Persons making these claims deny it is so.....but in fact it is.:thumbs:

.

This speculation might have been true,except God in wisdom granted apostolic sign gifts to be manifest by the apostles and the early church to credential the apostolic word. Those who "were not there" soon learned first hand of the apostolic sign gifts.

 

May I axe you sumptin? Gifts, given by the HS, they can be taken away as the HS pleases correct?

 

As I Said....

...before, I do not hold to the WOF or NICI folks. And no, what I have is NOT special, nor does it superceed the gift of salvation. The grace of salvation is the only gift I abscribe to and hold to as being the one thing in my life that has changed my life completely.

As I said before, anything else I have come across on my walk in this life, is superficial to His Grace and the wonderful gift of salvation.

And yes, my humility is honest and sincere [I have never strived to demonstrate these gifts in any public fashion, because the gifts are to be used subtly and behind the scenes, to support the church as a whole. It has never been about me, but about the body as one, and NO my humility is not a ploy to undermine or question the spirituality of anyone else. In fact, Iconoclast has a tremendous gift in understanding Scripture. I do not put down his gift, nor do I call it into question. However, his gift like mine does not mean what we say is infallible. Only God is infallible.

I don't expect all to understand what I expressed, as I once felt and leaned in the direction of the way others have spoken so far as to what I have shared. I only ask that I not be judged based upon what some think is impossible. God is not limited in what He can do. To question whether or not God can still dispense the gifts of Pentecost would be to call into question the ability of God Himself.

I was like that, until I was humbled and my heart and mind [theology] was radically [for me this was radical, for others it is nothing that spectacular] changed RE: the gifts' God laid upon my heart. I do not flaunt my gifts, nor do I judge anyone else, because I feel if you were not there, you'd not understand. And don't think for a New York minute that I didn't question what happened, and put it to solid tests before I started to accept and use those gifts.

However, never once have I called into question the spirituality of another believer, because as I've already stated, salvation is first and foremost in our relationship with Him. The meager things He has given have only enhanced my skills, and probably would have no effect on anyone else or their skills. Others have been given unique skills and gifts to enhance the part of the body they serve. I do not call into question what others have or don't have. I remain a humble servant of God and to the church, I have been called to be a part of.

 

I Am Not Surprised....

This kind of statement is to be rejected.There is truth[scripture] and there is error. We are to make righteous judgements jn 7:24



A person if free in America to express whatever they want.We are free to reject it also. This kind of statement suggests that perhaps others who have not been humbled....will not quite understand- this also seeks to make the random claim valid....you do not judge me,I will not judge you,
but then seeks to portray it in the "humble way".



No.....not really because God's word determines the issue.This reasoning could be used by anyone ,and indeed has been....

Oral Roberts claimed to have spoken with and seen a 900ft tall jesus
He was told all his followers needed to send in $144.00 in one lump sum payment, or 12 monthly installments

No...I did not have to be there....not when scripture speaks to it.These claims are a direct attack on the sufficency of scripture.Persons making these claims deny it is so.....but in fact it is.


This speculation might have been true,except God in wisdom granted apostolic sign gifts to be manifest by the apostles and the early church to credential the apostolic word. Those who "were not there" soon learned first hand of the apostolic sign gifts.

....but still highly disappointed in your comments :tear::tear::tear:

Your comment's drip with unfair comparisons to religious groups, and persons, that I would not ever be associated with in this lifetime [I would never, and have never even thought about using my gifts for personal, ministerial or financial gain]. However, for you to categorize me [although in a subtle, covert way] as a Mormon, not once but on several, occasions was petty and uncalled for. Shame on you.

For you to begin to QUESTION my sincerity and humility is unjust and and uncalled for, and it sets you up in the position of being someone who can read and guage anothers thoughts. That may almost qualify you as a prophet, in some realms of some churches?

For you to claim that I am questioning the history of the church [1900+ years of it] is just plain wrong, as I have not done so in any way, manner or form at any time while a member of this board.

I find it hard to believe that one member can be allowed to judge another brother and member of this forum in such a defammartory manner to question not only their integrity but their beliefs.

As I stated in all of the above comments, I am first, and foremost saved by grace, and no gift I may or may not have is superior to the gift of salvation. When I minister in His name, I only minister to lift up Jesus, not who I am, what I have [other than Jesus as Lord] or what I can do for another. I have always allowed God and His Holy Spirit to take precedence in all I do, and I have never flaunted my gifts before man.

I just shared on this board what I believe as true, and only in time [by way of the judgment] will you, or I know if you or I were wrong. This is why I do not lift up the gifts. There is but one thing I am sure of in my spirit, and that is that I am saved, and that the world needs Jesus. Any gifts I may or may not possess are now and always will be secondary to the Great Commission.

If you have the gift to judge man's heart [i.e., sincerity and humility] than you must be a far better man than most of us!

 

To Quote the Bible...

John 20:24-31 "Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.”

So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.”

And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.”

And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus said to him, “Thomas,[a] because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I guess, as I said before, unless you were there you'd not understand [or believe], and that is okay, because I've become accustomed to naysayers. All I ask is that you not judge me for something I once didn't believe was possible, either.

There is nothing wrong with not believing according to your understanding of the word. Just try not to judge those who may have experienced something that Scripturally speaking [according to what you've been taught and believe] is impossible.

After all: Seeing is Believing! However, just because you don''t believe in what I now believe in doesn't make you any less, or any more right then me We are still the same, saved by grace, and that isn't going to change.

I can only ask that you don't judge me, because I am not judging you. Shalom!

 

I do not recall a gust of wind or fire in Acts 10, 19?

 

righteousdude2

Hello Dude. I did not think you would like them however based on recent posts I wanted to point these things out.

The comparisons were not meant to say,or imply you were a mormon ,or word of faith person. The comparison was that what you are posting in exact substance can not be honestly distinguished using the very language you posted-
You have claimed an outer body experience, sign gifts, and other such musings. because I illustrate the point, using a Mormon, or a roman catholic, or a wof heretic, does not say that you are anyone of those groups.What it does say is your own words...are saying or asking those who read your post to believe that your claim is legitimate and that this can be expected for some christians[not all].



,

As I just explained that is not what i did at all. I took your words and showed that any one can use the same ideas to justify or claim anything, I used obvious wrong persons,catholic,mormon ,etc to make the point.
If you read it slowly you will see it. I am sure you will not like it any better, but what i wrote is clear enough.

Dude let me say it this way.I do not intend to cause you any unnecessary grief or offence.If I ever do that it would not be intentional. You
posted these ideas publically and as i read your posts this is what it was saying as i read it. I do not back off from what I posted because I waited for awhile before posting.
I am one person and offer imput and feedback. You do not have to listen to what I offer.What i offer is meant to be constuctive. Not always welcomed, not always nice and tactful as others might be able to express the ideas. I attempt to respond biblically.

To your credit.....Most of the time you seek to be pleasant and encourage people,lighten things up sometimes. There have been times I have posted being supportive of your posts. You seem to be a nice person.I have not said or posted otherwise.
If you think back,each time I post to oppose your ideas it is along these same lines of ongoing gifts, revelation,etc. It is an attack on the sufficency of scripture as given.-[yes, I know you will claim otherwise] I can only offer what I see.
You have said that you also identify the WoF people as in error. I have read your posts on that. Yet here you post things that in substance are not different....in other words.....You have publically stated that you were virtually as the Apostle Paul was.....having these unique experiences..and ongoing gifts........Dude....no matter how you slice the pie...the substance of your post.....is the same root.

Can I read your posts and just be quiet and polite and just say...well...maybe somehow of the billions of people on the planet- maybe God has done a special thing with Dude that He has not done with anyone since the Apostles??? I cannot do that.I will comment based on scripture and what I and others have seen.

This has been the overwhelming position of the church throughout history.Every other claim has been historically rejected.These kind of claims as you have posted is outside the camp. I do not make a proclamation and it becomes so, i just know what has been reported in church history. I did not make it up on the go....Scripture alone as opposed to RC inventions has been the teaching that has come down to us.
I see this as the biblical position and will defend it when an attack comes.
You might not have been thinking of your post as an attack when you posted.....but others like myself read it that way.Some might not even respond as I do....but we are grown men Dude.

Make up a poll on it like you do.

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

As i have explained...I am reacting to what you are posting.I did not misquote you or speak about you personally.I spoke about what you posted and why it is not biblical or to be followed. You are free to continue in a BB to make non baptist claims. Claiming to be baptist,then adopting all the language of wof persons and still claim to be baptist is wrong.

A pentecostal who is baptized by immersion is not a "baptist". They believe in believers baptism, but their theology is not baptist.
Your out of body experience,claims of tongues, moving in the spirit, moving in the gifts,etc.....is not baptist theology if you would just be objective you would see this. If you were in the all denominations forum and posted these things it would be one thing.You are in the BB posting pentecostal ideas however.

I defend your right to do this,as i defend my right to comment on your posts.You are welcome to be as critical as you want of my posts.I will accept any and all biblical correction . We should all desire to be corrected in any defect that comes to light.:thumbsup:

We can agree here for sure...that is all well and good.

[/QUOTE]

I do not claim any unique supernatural sign gift or manifestation.The more any christian studies and becomes familiar with truth the more scriptural discernment will be evidenced as here;
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

This is the basis for our growth and contending for the faith.I get to see many people in person during the week. I have many chances to engage in conversation.......that is the by reason of use.....We have never met in person,and yet over time you notice and get to know a person by what they express.

 

One More Time, Yeshua...

First let me say I noticed that you're from metro-Detroit. I was born and raised in Detroit before moving to California whe I was 10 years old. I have many fond memories of Detroit. Everything from White Castle Burgers to Hudson Christmas Parade to Boblo Island, to fishing fith my dad's father on Lake Huron. And I loved the Tigers and Lions! Still follow both teams and root for them when the opportunity comes about.

My mothers father was CEO of Champion spark Plugs, and the rest of the family worked in the auto indutry there.

To answer your question, let me say that I have NO problem discerning the difference between the Spirit of God and something or someone else.

Secondly, my testimony is lengthy, and cumbersome, and while I certainly don't want to seel books on the forum, the only way you could fully appreciate my words would be to "buy yhe book."

Unfortunately, because the publisher I was has recently been found out to be behind the cult church Sound Doctrine, and their VP was arrested and stands accused of sexually molesting a girl in his care, I decided to remove both of my books from them, and I am going to have to revise the book and put it with Create Space Publishing [Amazon] as soon as I have time to do the work needed to put out a second edition.

I do have a few copies of the book at my home, and if you'd like to read it, maybe we can work out something, with you paying for shipping and handling.

To be honest, the book is my testimony, and it clearly details what God took me through, and what I took Him through, and through it all, I've more than proved to myself that what He put me through was of Him, not emotions, or demonic. Only God could have accomplished the many things in my life that I've been through since the night of my supernatural event and calling.

However, I will tell you, I have tested God. I didn't believe any of the things I experienced and went through. I was like Jonah. I was reluctant, and rebellious, but when all the questions and lack of trust gave way to believing, I saw that it was of Him [not me, or something or someone else].

To begin with, I was one of the several pastors which moved to have a spirit-filled pastor removed from our conference when he began speaking of the gifts. I was that hard headed and boxed in by my theology. As I look back now, I was like a Paul. I went after those spirit-filled fakes with all the gumption I had in me. I also went after people who were divorced and remarried.

Let's just say, God has a funny sense of humor. Ten years after my marriage, my wife left me for the adventure of being "wild." Something she says she never got to do before she married me. That cost me my ministry in the Church of God-Anderson, Indiana. This led me to a local Baptist church, where I became the youth pastor.


I always believed in the "Once saved, always saved" teachings [something the COG-Anderson didn't hold to]. After that youth pastor job, I hooked as music minister and associate pastor at another Baptist church, and two years later I was ordained.

I still hadn't come in contact with the Holy Ghost, and the gifts until I had a life-changing event. The event involved me being in the wrong place at the right time. I ran into a prophet, and let's just say that God revealed Himself in a mighty way. I could no longer deny that God still gave out gifts to His people. And even though I argued with God for a while longer, God began to show me that if I insisted on preaching in my own intellect, I was on my own.

The sermons, I gave, which were once considered some of the best, were flat, and lacked any form of energy or connection with both God and His people.

Once I tossed the prepared sermon's notes, and went with prayerful study and leaned on God to take me in the direction of the way He wanted me to preach when taking the pulpit, I found a new strength and boldness to preach from and out of the Holy Ghost. It was a wonderful freedom, and people were being touched in ways I could only have dreamed and hoped to see have happened.

I tinkered with returning to prepared notes, but each time I did; I felt lost and alone behind the pulpit. God didn't want me to preach what I thought I heard Him tell me to preach. He only wanted my heart prepared to preach, and most of the days; the sermons came as I stepped up to the pulpit, surveyed the crowd, and allowed my spirit to come in touch with His. It was like God was using me to be a vessel through which He did the speaking.

I could no longer take credit for the contents of the messages. Oh, sure, people would tell me what a great message I had, but I could only respond that it was God, not me! And it was Him, not me.

I learned to operate under the here and now of His Spirit, which has taught me to be relevant and not necessarily studied and merely repeating intellectual hype. People were actually hearing a word from God, and I was merely the empty vessel that He filled right before it was time to pour out the blessing in order to water and feed His flock.

If this is hard to understand, so be it. Because it is still hard for me to fully comprehend, but I'd never go back to spew well thought out messages, studied and put together after much book time and prayer.

I don't expect other preachers to move this way; however, because I am sure, Iconoclast for one, can preach up a storm from his intellectual preparations, and be able to touch people as well as me.

What I have discovered is that God works in many ways. Not, one way or another. However, in MANY ways. And my way is but one of those ways. It is not better than another, but it is also not less than anothers, either.

I told you this was going to be long, and this doesn't cover all I should share. But there's a lot to share after 46 years of living for Him!

Shalom!

 

Thanks...

I do not claim any unique supernatural sign gift or manifestation.The more any christian studies and becomes familiar with truth the more scriptural discernment will be evidenced as here;
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

This is the basis for our growth and contending for the faith.I get to see many people in person during the week. I have many chances to engage in conversation.......that is the by reason of use.....We have never met in person,and yet over time you notice and get to know a person by what they express.[/QUOTE]

Posted by error

 

Thanks....

I do not claim any unique supernatural sign gift or manifestation.The more any christian studies and becomes familiar with truth the more scriptural discernment will be evidenced as here;
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

This is the basis for our growth and contending for the faith.I get to see many people in person during the week. I have many chances to engage in conversation.......that is the by reason of use.....We have never met in person,and yet over time you notice and get to know a person by what they express.[/QUOTE]

I fully and completely ACCEPT your most earnest apology :laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

To Those Who Think I'm Wrong....

...it's really okay, and you need to know that I am trying hard not to take any personal offense with your opinions. After all, that is your right to disagree and point out to me the splinter in my eye! In fact, it was only twenty-five years or so ago, that I was as vehemently opposed to some of the things you are opposed to in me.

I wanted you to know, that if I were a "die hard charismatic," I'd be telling you that you are all dead wrong too! However, that would only drag this thing further into the court of public opinion, and the only person we need to prove things to in the end, is God! Please be aware that I am comfortable with what I believe God has done in my life [whether you like or believe it doesn't matter, so long as I believe it to be true].

The difference between us is in the way we are handling this lack of the meeting-of-our-theological minds! By now, you have have seen or figured out that I am not your normal or usual charismatic. I know who I am. I know who I love. I know who I follow. And I have no doubts that where I am at in my walk with Him, it is where I'm supposed to be. Thus I see no need to defend who I am or what I possess.

Therefore, I allow you to be where you are, and can only hope and pray after you discharge your frustrations [anger] with what you see as my "iconocloastic, heretical and warped" spiritual leanings; that we can remain brothers in Christ. I know from whom I received my manifestations, and these edification's do not change, in one iota, how I view or feel about any of you as well as myself. When all is said and done, and the dust from this theological sparring settles down, nothing can separate us from the Love of Christ! :wavey:

 

righteousdude

Dude ...you finally confirm what I have said....you are not a baptist.What you are teaching is not baptist teaching.
So why this whole charade? You are on BB , not teaching baptist teaching.Then you get upset when we question you on it?

If you are a charismatic believer thats who you are.Both teachings do not really mesh. You see that here.

You are convinced you get messages from outside the bible, the rest of us stay in the bible:thumbsup: Case closed:thumbsup: