How do you identify the text of KJV editions?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Logos1560, Sep 16, 2007.

  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    Ed Edward's post in another thread raises interesting questions:

    >>>>>>
    "(World Publishing Company, date unknown)
    KJV1769 Edition or so
    (but no clue about which KJV it
    really is???) This copy was acquired in 1953.

    King James Version
    (Holman Bible Publishers, 1983)
    KJV1769 Edition or so (but no clue about which KJV it really is???)

    KJV1769 Edition or so
    (but no clue about which KJV it really is???)

    HOLY BIBLE, King James Version
    (Cambridge University Press, date unknown)
    KJV1769 Edition or so
    (but no clue about which KJV it really is???)
    <<<<<<<________________________________________________


    Is there any way to know accurately which text of which edition of the KJV that the text of a present KJV will be? What is the standard or standards that can be used to claim that a certain edition of the KJV is the correct one? Who determines which the standard editions of the KJV really are?

    Editions of the KJV printed in 1611 and afterwards including up to some time in the 1800's usually had a date of printing along with the place where they were printed. Editions of the KJV printed in the 1900's do not usually give the year of printing. Study Bible KJV editions may have the clue of when the study notes were first copyrighted and printed, but that may not be indicate whether any changes could have been introduced into the text of the KJV in later editions of that same study Bible. There is also the problem that the printing date does not always indicate which edition of the KJV that the text of the new edition followed. For example, I have a KJV edition printed at Oxford in 1777 that does not seem to follow the text of the 1769 Oxford edition. It is possible that the editors or printers of later KJV editions may not have noticed some of the variations in the text of the edition that they thought that they were following. Another problem is that most editions of the KJV do not identify their editors and do not list what changes or revisions may have been made in the text. When there are differences in that edition, it may not always be known whether it was an unintentional change made by a printer or the intentional change made by an editor. Furthermore, no explanation or reasons for why the various changes were introduced are usually given. A couple exceptions would be the 1873 Cambridge edition edited by Scrivener and the 2005 Cambridge edition edited by David Norton since those two KJV editors both authored books that give some explanations for their editing decisions.

    I have seen and examined one KJV edition printed in America in 1837 that did name the KJV editions on which it was said to be based. Still there was no list of variations of the text in the KJV editions provided and any indication which edition was followed for certain renderings in this 1837 edition. In some cases, the editor may not even be aware of some of the possible variations in the text of the KJV edition that he thought he was following.

    By the way, as far as I know, no present publisher of the KJV prints a KJV edition that is every word the same in text as the 1769 Oxford KJV.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Here are some on-line (electronic copy) KJV variants
    I (and others) have noticed. This data is 3 years old
    or more and may not be correct today???

    -------------------------
    On-line KJV variant #1:

    http://www.bartleby.com/
    The King James Version 2000
    Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights,
    he was afterward ahungered.

    [follow this trail:
    Reference &gt; The Bible &gt; The King James Version &gt; Matthew &gt; 4 ]


    http://www.christnotes.org/
    The King James Version
    Matthew 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights,
    he was afterward an hungred.

    http://www.servantofjesuschrist.com/
    quoted St. Matthew 4:2:
    And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights,
    he was afterward a hungered.
    (my paper KJV1873 reads like this)

    http://www.Crosswalk.com/
    The King James Version (Authorized)
    Matthew 4:2
    And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights,
    he was afterward an hungred.
    (My Grandmother's Bible is like this.
    From the title page: New York: American Bible
    Society, 1851.)

    The "hee was afterward an hungred" is found in
    my paper 1611 Edition KJV and on-line at e-Sword.com



    On-line KJV variant #2:

    http://www.bartleby.com/
    The King James Version x
    1 Cor 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat,
    asking no question for conscience' sake:


    http://www.christnotes.org/
    The King James Version
    25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat,
    asking no question for conscience sake:

    http://www.servantofjesuschrist.com/
    10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

    http://www.Crosswalk.com/
    The King James Version (Authorized)
    10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat,
    asking no question for conscience sake:

    e-Sword.com KJV1769 with Strongs:
    1Co 10:25 Whatsoever3956 is sold4453 in1722 the meat market,3111 that eat,2068 asking no question350, 3367 for conscience sake:1223, 4893

    online variant #3

    Which KJV is correct?
    How can you tell?
    Who desides?
    What doctrine is hinging on the
    punctuation of this sentence?

    Colossians 2:23 (KJV1611 Edition):

    Which things haue in deed a shew of wisedome in will-worship
    and humilitie, and ||neglecting of the body,
    not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

    Sidenote: || Or, punsihing , or not sparing

    Colossians 2:23 (KJV Crosswalk.com):

    Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship,
    and humility, and neglecting of the body,
    not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

    Colossians 2:23 (KJV E-Sword.com):

    Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will-worship,
    and humility, and neglecting of the body;
    not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

    Colossians 2:23 (KJV1873 Edition):

    Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship,
    and humility, and neglecting of the body:
    not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
     
  3. Jerome

    Jerome
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  4. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    For the most part, KJV-only sources are not very reliable in identifying the text of KJV editions. Some of the editions of the KJV online or available electronically that are supposed to be the 1769 Oxford text are not actually every word the same in text as the 1769.

    I have not yet had the opportunity to examine firsthand a KJV edition printed at Oxford in 1769. Based on evidence from those who have examined one and who listed some of its different renderings and based on evidence from Oxford KJV editions printed in 1795, 1799, 1804, 1810, 1812, and throughout the 1800's, I know several of the renderings found in the 1769 Oxford KJV edition that are not in present KJV editions.

    I have had the opportunity to examine firsthand a KJV edition printed at Cambridge in 1762, and I have a copy of a KJV edition printed at Cambridge in 1769. Based on the evidence from those two Cambridge editions, the text of Waite's Defined KJB is definitely not the "Cambridge 1769 text."

    The 1762 Cambridge edition, a 1769 Cambridge edition, the 1769 Oxford edition, and even later Oxford editions printed in 1795, 1799, 1804, and even as late as 1810 still have a character shaped like “f” for long “s” in many words. A few examples of the use of this character in the 1795 Oxford KJV edition: “fin” (Ps. 32:5), “fee” (Ps. 34:12), “chafe” (Ps. 35:5), “wife” (Ps. 36:3), “flay” (Ps. 37:14), “feed” (Ps. 37:26), “fore” (Ps. 38:2), “foul” (Ps. 42:1), and “fake” (Ps. 44:26). There were hundreds, even perhaps thousands, of words in the 1769 that had this character shaped like "f" for long "s."

    The spelling of other words was also changed or updated after 1769, some after 1840, and some even after 1885. The change in several words may have been made after 1804 [“befel“ to “befell“ (2 Sam. 15:12), “Judea” to “Judaea” (Matt. 2:1), “Lebbeus” to “Lebbaeus” (Matt. 10:3), “Arimathea” to “Arimathaea” (Matt. 27:57), “Idumea” to “Idumaea” (Mark 3:8), “Alpheus” to “Alphaeus” (Mark 3:18), “Thaddeus” to “Thaddaeus” (Mark 3:18), “Bartimeus” to “Bartimaeus” (Mark 10:46), “Cesar’s” to “Caesar’s” (Mark 12:17), “vail” to “veil” (Mark 15:38), etc.] although some present KJV editions have gone back to the earlier spelling in same cases. Some words were changed after 1840 in Oxford editions [“houfhold” or “houshold” to “household” (Gen. 18:19), “houfholds” or “housholds” to “households” (Gen. 42:33), “houfholder” or “housholder” to “householder” (Matt. 13:27), “broidered” to “broided” (1 Tim. 2:9), “injoined” to “enjoined” (Heb. 9:20), etc.]. A few spelling changes were made after 1885 in some Oxford editions: [“enquire” to “inquire” (Gen. 24:57), “ax” to “axe” (Deut. 19:5), “ancles” to “ankles” (Ezek. 47:3), “sope“ to “soap“ (Mal. 3:2), “ancle” to “ankle” (Acts 3:7), “enquired” to “inquired” (1 Pet. 1:10), etc.]. Some spelling changes were made after 1900 in present standard Cambridge editions.

    Here are a few sample renderings that may help identify the actual 1769 Oxford text. The 1769 Oxford had a few renderings from the 1762 Cambridge that are not in present editions [Gen. 36:22, Deut. 10:2, 1 Sam. 2:13]. The 1769 Oxford edition had “LORD” [Jehovah] at several verses where present Oxford editions have “Lord.” Most of these changes of “LORD” to “Lord” were not introduced until after 1828 in Oxford editions. The standard 1769 Oxford edition had several other renderings that are not found in present Oxford editions [“thy progenitors” instead of “my progenitors” (Gen. 49:26), “Zithri“ instead of “Zichri“ (Exod. 6:21), “Beer-sheba, Sheba” instead of “Beer-sheba, and Sheba” (Josh. 19:2), “children of Gilead” instead of “elders of Gilead” (Jud. 11:7), “coast” instead of “coasts” (Jud. 19:29), “hasted” instead of “hastened” (1 Sam. 17:48), “on the pillars” instead of “on the top of the pillars” (2 Chron. 4:12), “thy companions” instead of “the companions” (Job 41:6), “unto me” instead of “under me” (Ps. 18:47), “feared” instead of “fear” (Ps. 60:4), “part” instead of “parts” (Ps. 78:66), “gates of iron” instead of “bars of iron” (Ps. 107:16), “mighty is spoiled“ instead of “mighty are spoiled“ (Zech. 11:2), “Now if do” instead of “Now if I do” (Rom. 7:20), “not in unbelief” instead of “not still in unbelief” (Rom. 11:23), “the earth” instead of “the world” (1 Cor. 4:13), “about” instead of “above” (2 Cor. 12:2), “you were inferior” instead of “ye were inferior” (2 Cor. 12:13), and “our joy” instead of “your joy” (1 John 1:4). Several of these 1769 renderings remained in Oxford editions over 70 years since they can still be found in a 1840 Oxford edition. At least one (Exod. 6:21) remained over 100 years since it is still in a 1872 Cambridge edition, a 1880 Oxford edition, and in many Oxford editions between 1769 and 1880. Oxford editions printed in 1795, 1799, 1804, 1810, 1821, 1828, 1829, 1835, 1838, 1840, 1847, 1850, 1857, 1859, 1868, 1870, 1876, 1880, and 1885 have “travel” instead of “travail” at Numbers 20:14 and Lamentations 3:5.


     
  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    Below is a list of the Oxford editions of the KJV that are sources of my observations concerning the text of Oxford KJV editions. I also have had opportunity to examine Oxford KJV editions printed in 1762, 1782, and 1799.

    The Holy Bible. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1795.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1804.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1810.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1812. Stereotype Edition.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: Samuel Collingwood and Co., 1821.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: Samuel Collingwood and Co., 1828.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: Samuel Collingwood and Co., 1829.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: Thomas Wright and W. Gill, 1777.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1835.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1838.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1840.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1847.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1850.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1857.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1859.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1865.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1868.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1870.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1876.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1880.
    The Holy Bible. Oxford: University Press, 1885.
     
    #5 Logos1560, Sep 16, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 16, 2007
  6. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    In another thread, Ed Sutton posted some comments that relate to this topic:

    "Unless one actually knows what edition they have in hand, how could one know whether one's KJV is a 1762 Cambridge, 1769 Oxford, or some other slight variance of any of the other KJVs published. The version is in the "public domain" in the USA, so one is not required to give this specific information when printing a copy.

    Ed"
    ________________________________

    I do not know of any publisher today that prints an edition that is every word the same in text as the 1762 Cambridge KJV. Present Cambridge editions have 100-300 changes that were introduced in the 1769 Oxford KJV edition. There were some other differences in the 1769 Oxford and in Oxford editions and some Cambridge editions for 30 to 70 years in the 1800's that are not found in present Cambridge editions.

    For information to see whether you have the 1769 Oxford edition, see the verses to check in my article posted at the following web address

    www.kjv-only.com/rick/1769.html
     
  7. angelfire

    angelfire
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    KJV online variants

    Hi Ed , You have shown me about two dozen,.semi-harmless , varients in KJV versions ( 4) , can I feel free to show you as many as 45,000 variants in the 38 editions of the NIV --most of which are serious
    in christ angelfire
     
  8. angelfire

    angelfire
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    KJV versions ---unreliable

    Hi Jerome. there are some minor varients in the texts of the KJV ,to be sure , depending which of the MAJORITY texts is being quoted. HOWEVER when scholars quote the NIV from a NON-EXISTANT LXX , a NON-EXISTANT SEPTUIGENT a COPY of the non existant LXX (from memory) in the Hexapla by a KNOWN HERATIC ( Origen) where mostly margin notes were consulted , the Peshita, totally unreliable document and the Latin Vulgate ; which Jesuites use to subvert protestant theology ---I think the KJV can stand up against all the 38 NIV "translations" thank-you
    in Christ
    angelfire
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Start a topic and go to work.

    I've found many individual 'onlyists' tend to
    have sworn off reading the NIVs.
    I only have one NIV and it has pretty much
    stayed the same :praying:
     
  10. EdSutton

    EdSutton
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    That last sentence shows a strange phenomenon. Every edition of every version I possess has remained unchanged, as well. Not one has seen a single word change, while lying on my shelf. :thumbs:

    Ignore my short, driveling [​IMG]

    Now, back to our regularly scheduled prog....

    Ed
     
    #10 EdSutton, Oct 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2007
  11. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Here is the local BB folk putting their
    'eds together: :1_grouphug:

    This ed, age 64, notes that the scripture
    he put in his head has changed over time.

    Check it out:

    23rd Psalm:

    The Lord is my Sheppard
    I shall not want
    He maketh me to lie down in green pastures
    He restoreth my soul
    He leadeth me in paths of righteousness
    For His name's sake
    Yea, though I walk through
    The valley of the shadow of death
    I shall fear no evil
    For thou art with me
    Thy rod and thy staff
    They comfort me
    Thou preparest a place before me
    In the presence of mine enemies
    Thou annoinest my head with oil
    My cup runneth over
    Surely, Goodness & mercy shall follow
    Me all the days of my live
    And I will dwell in the
    House of the Lord forever.


    Which of the KJVs is that from?

    Caveat: there is no copyright on the
    stuff in my head.
     
  12. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
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    If something is worthy saying at all, it should be worthy of saying correctly (1 Cor. 10:31). The readers here do not expect perfection, but you mispelled at least 6 key words (I count the 3 occurrences of "existent" as only one word). If you want to be taken seriously, then demonstrate that you know the subject matter.

    Please explain what you mean by "depending which of the MAJORITY texts is being quoted". This topic is about the publication (not the 'quotation') of various KJV texts. The Majority Text (aka Byzantine Text) is a term applied generally to one of several critical Greek texts. The KJV is not based on the relatively modern MT.

    When do "scholars quote the NIV"? Please explain what "from a NON-EXISTENT LXX" means. There are several existing examples of the LXX (Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus, and the Codex Alexandrinus).
     
    #12 franklinmonroe, Oct 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2007
  13. Logos1560

    Logos1560
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    How many do you mean by "some?"

    Between the 1611 edition of the KJV and the present Oxford KJV edition in the Scofield Reference Bible there are at least 2,000 varients.

    Between that same present Oxford KJV edition and the 2005 Cambridge KJV edition, there are around 4,000 varients.

    Between that same present Oxford KJV edition and the Cambridge Standard Text editions of the KJV, there are also varients. It differs from the standard text in the Oxford edition in the Scofield Bible in the following places. This Cambridge edition has “spirit of God“ (Gen. 1:2) for “Spirit of God,” “instructor“ (Gen. 4:22) for “instructer,” "assuaged" (Gen. 8:1) for "asswaged," "plucked" (Gen. 8:11) for "pluckt," “Sabtecha“ (Gen. 10:7) for “Sabtechah,” "mortar" (Gen. 11:3) for "morter," “theirs“ (Gen. 15:13, 34:23, 43:34) for “their‘s,” “fetched“ (Gen. 18:7) for “fetcht,” “entreat“ for “intreat“ (Gen. 23:8), “Abida“ (Gen. 25:4) for “Abidah,” “ours“ (Gen. 26:20, 31:16, 34:23) for “our‘s,” “chestnut“ (Gen. 30:37) for “chesnut,” "aught" (Gen. 39:6, 47:18) for "ought," “today“ (Gen. 40:7) for “to day,” “spirit of God“ (Gen. 41:38) for “Spirit of God,” “Zerah“ (Gen. 46:12) for “Zarah,” “basins“ (Exod. 24:6) for “basons,” "veil" (Exod. 26:31) for "vail," “men children“ (Exod. 34:23) for “menchildren,” "plaster" (Lev. 14:42) for "plaister," "plastered" (Lev. 14:43) for "plaistered," "crookbacked" (Lev. 21:20) for "crookbackt," “jubilee“ (Lev. 25:9) for “jubile,” “mixed“ (Num. 11:4) for “mixt,” “ours“ (Num. 32:32) for “our‘s,” “aught“ (Deut. 4:2) for “ought,” “yours“ (Deut. 11:24) for “your‘s,” “awl“ (Deut. 15:17) for “aul,” “hers“ (Deut. 21:15) for “her‘s,” "rearward" (Josh. 6:9, 13) for "rereward," “Jahazah“ (Josh. 13:18) for “Jahaza,” "or Sheba" (Josh. 19:2) for "and Sheba," “Hapharaim“ (Josh. 19:19) for “Haphraim,” “spirit“ (Jud. 3:10) for “Spirit,” “wondrously“ (Jud. 13:19) for “wonderously,” "steadfastly" (Ruth 1:18) for "stedfastly," “hasted“ (1 Sam. 17:48) for “hastened,” “spirit“ (1 Sam. 19:20, 2 Sam. 23:2) for “Spirit,” “inquired“ (1 Sam. 22:13) for “enquired,” “Malchi-shua“ (1 Sam. 31:2) for “Melchi-shua,” “aught“ (2 Sam. 3:35) for “ought,” “Shammua“ (2 Sam. 5:14) for “Shammuah,” “Shimea“ (2 Sam. 21:21) for “Shimeah,” “spirit“ (2 Sam. 23:2) for “Spirit,” “Naharai“ (2 Sam. 23:37) for “Nahari,” "ceiling" (1 Kings 6:15) for "cieling," “the LORD“ (1 Kings 8:56) for “the Lord,” “spirit“ (1 Kings 18:12, 22:24) for “Spirit,“ “inquire“ (1 Kings 22:8) for “enquire,” “hers“ (2 Kings 8:6) for “her‘s,” "the LORD" (2 Kings 19:23) for "the Lord," “housetops“ (2 Kings 19:26) for “house tops,” “Ezer“ (1 Chron. 1:38) for “Ezar,” “Geshan“ (1 Chron. 2:47) for “Gesham,” “Achsah“ (1 Chron. 2:49) for “Achsa,” “Salchah“ (1 Chron. 5:11) for “Salcah,” “Shimron“ (1 Chron. 7:1) for “Shimrom,” “Shemida“ (1 Chron. 7:19) for “Shemidah,” “Jehoshua“ (1 Chron. 7:27) for “Jehoshuah,” “Michah“ (1 Chron. 23:20) for “Micah,” “Jeshua“ (1 Chron. 24:11) for “Jeshuah,” "floats" (2 Chron. 2:16) for "flotes," "ceiled" (2 Chron. 3:5) for "cieled," “spirit“ (2 Chron. 15:1, 18:23, 20:14, 24:20) for “Spirit,” “Ezion-geber“ (2 Chron. 20:36) for “Ezion-gaber,” "sin" (2 Chron. 33:19) for "sins," “Carchemish“ (2 Chron. 35:20) for “Charchemish,” “Mispar“ (Ezra 2:2) for “Mizpar,” “Asnappar“ (Ezra 4:10) for “Asnapper,” "O LORD" (Neh. 1:11) for "O Lord," “LORD“ (Neh. 3:5) for “Lord,” "entreated" (Job 19:17) for "intreated," “spirit“ (Job 33:4) for “Spirit,” “grayheaded“ (Ps. 71:18) for “greyheaded,” “wits‘ end“ (Ps. 107:27) for “wit‘s end,” "vapour" (Ps. 148:8) for "vapours," “two-edged“ (Ps. 149:6) for “twoedged,” "inquiry" (Prov. 20:25) for "enquiry," “gray“ (Prov. 20:29) for “grey,” “further“ (Eccl. 8:17) for “farther,” “rearward“ (Isa. 52:12) for “rereward,” “noonday“ (Isa. 58:10) for “noon day,” “cloak“ (Isa. 59:17) for “cloke,” "holy spirit" (Isa. 63:10) for "holy Spirit," "whom ye" (Jer. 34:16) for "whom he," "portray" (Ezek. 4:1) for "pourtray," “spirit“ (Ezek. 11:5, 24) for “Spirit,” “Kerioth“ (Amos 2:2) for “Kirioth,” "flieth" (Nah. 3:16) for "fleeth," “inquired“ (Matt. 2:7) for “enquired,” "Spirit" (Matt. 4:1) for "spirit," "theirs" (Matt. 5:3) for "their's," “aught“ (Matt. 5:23) for “ought,” "cloak" (Matt. 5:40) for "cloke," “Son of David“ (Matt. 9:27) for “son of David,” "lunatic" (Matt. 17:15) for "lunatick," "sponge" (Matt. 27:48) for "spunge," “Spirit“ (Mark 1:12) for “spirit,” “further“ (Mark 1:19) for “farther,” "yours" (Luke 6:20) for "your's," “havoc“ (Acts 8:3) for “havock,” “inquiry“ (Acts 10:17) for “enquiry,” “grafted“ (Rom. 11:23) for “graffed,” “graft” (Rom. 11:23) for “graff,“ “instructors“ (1 Cor. 4:15) for “instructers,” “entreaty” (2 Cor. 8:4) for “intreaty,“ “entreat” (Phil. 4:3) for “intreat,“ “cloak“ (2 Tim. 4:13) for “cloke,” “Nicolaitans“ (Rev. 2:6, 15) for “Nicolaitanes,” “Spirit of life” (Rev. 11:11) for “spirit of life,“ “alas, that” (Rev. 18:16) for “alas that,“ and "chrysolite" (Rev. 21:20) for "chrysolyte."

     

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