How do you know?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by menageriekeeper, Dec 29, 2010.

  1. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
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    That someone is "elect"?

    I've puzzled over this for a while. Well, ever since a friend of mine visited a very sweet Reformed congregation as was told that she was elect by one of the elders. Notice, this isn't an insult against that congregation. Its full of people I believe are my siblings in Christ despite our differences in doctrine/theology.

    In my nonCal/nonArm version of theology (we'll called it MKism and I'll make it up as I go along, prooftexting all the way ;) ), I find that I am to recognize other Christians by the Fruits of the Spirit that they display. You know, love, joy, peace and all that. Now if I work backward from that display I suppose I could legitimately tell someone who's fruit is readily identifiable that they were "elect". But what happens if their fruit is green or still in the bud stage? What happens if that person has no fruit at all or hasn't believed yet?

    IF we can't know if one another is elect, why bother worrying about whether or not people are "elected unto salvation" or if they are free to believe or not as they choose? What difference will it make to the end products: A Christian standing before the throne, that they chose to believe rather than being elected to believe? Or a nonChristian standing before the gates of Hell, that they were elected to hell rather than having made the choice by their own actions?

    This is the very center of predestination to me. If God says that man has no excuse, then He must have given them a reason not to have an excuse. This is that reason:

    1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    1Jn 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

    You may not name call in this thread! Play nice!
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    2 Peter 1:10 -
    Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall :

    from Paul:
    2 Corinthians 13:5
    Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves . Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates ?

    ======================================================

    Nobody was there when the "Book of Life" was written so just like saying I am saved BECAUSE I accepted Christ as my Savior is saying something which may not be scripturally correct, it may equally not be scripturally correct to say I am saved because I was elect to be saved.
    One thing is sure though.
    There IS a way to know that you belong to Christ, or neither Peter nor Paul will exhort believers in their time to make sure and do an examination.
    First is the leading and witness of the Spirit Himself. (Romans 8:14-16).
    Second may be the love for God's word and law. You see Scriptures for this all over God's word. Psalms would be a good place to start.
    Third may be your love for the brethren, or those who name the Name of Christ. Christ Himself said by this shall the world know that we are His disciples.

    The holding on to the doctrine of election or freewill is just that: doctrine.
    That is the doctrine that for me exalts God to the highest pedestal and puts me at the lowest part of His feet, and I feel that is what honors Him more than the doctrine of freewill.
    This is an incomplete answer and may not satisfy everybody, and to be honest, I might still edit it to improve on it, but right now, these are my thoughts.
     
  3. charles_creech78

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    I believe some men are chosen to do the will of God. Predestination in God sending someone to hell I do not believe. If it is Gods will that he Predestined someone to hell then I just don't understand why he would say this in this scripture that it is his will: 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. It is clearly not his will that anyone of us should perish. Predestination to me means that he has chosen someone to do his will before he was even born. Foreordained someone to do his will. If a man is called to preach he is predestined to do so: Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! I believe a man has to be ordained to preach and it must be by God. It is Gods elect! Rather we live or die we are the Lords. It is Gods Predestination with his elect chosen to do his will! For it is our sins and our iniquities that has separated us form the love of God. For we have all sinned and come short of his glory and there is non righteous no not one and there is no respecter of persons with him for we have all sinned. Yet as we was sinner or before we even did good or bad Christ died for us. Chosen to do the will of God he was Predestined to do the will of God from the beginning to die for each and all that would believe on him. Honor and glory to God the father who loved us and gave his only begotten son for us that we should not perish if we would only believe in his name. On the rock he said not my will but thy will be done. He loves each and all and would have all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Which is only in Jesus Christ our Lord! God bless.
     
    #3 charles_creech78, Dec 29, 2010
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  4. menageriekeeper

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    I think Pinoy, that is a balanced view of how we personally know or are sure of our own salvation/electness. What about knowing someone elses, or is it arrogant to think we can judge the election of another? Is trying the spirits the same as judging the election/salvation of another?
     
    #4 menageriekeeper, Dec 29, 2010
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  5. annsni

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    If someone is truly saved, they are elect. However, we cannot know the state of someone's soul so really only God knows. It's not like in the Left Behind series where all believers had a mark that other believers could see. :) So we act as if every unsaved person is a person that will be saved in the end by preaching the Gospel to them and sharing Christ with them. We do our part and know that in the end, those who will believe will.
     
  6. blackbird

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    I get into trouble with the Cal's in this one

    But anytime we study the theology of predestination---we are the finite studying the mind of the infinite----I've studied the theology and will continue to study it---but everytime I do--my mind becomes like a piece of bacon in a fryin' pan!!!

    There's been lots of times where I'd be studying along and say to myself---"I've got to put this down for a while---I can't go on!! Give my mind a break!!!"

    But under my theological microscope I've narrowed predestination/election down to this

    God elects------------the "Whosoever will's"

    "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"

    "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

    The key words to focus on is the word "Lord" and the word "Believeth"

    Who is your Lord RIGHT NOW???

    and

    Who are you believeing RIGHT NOW???
     
  7. Tom Butler

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    How do we recognize who is elect? Paul provides the answer in I Thess 2:3-4.

    "3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, your labor of love, and patience of hope in the Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of God our Father. 4 knowing, brethren the beloved your election of God."

    Paul declared them elect in v. 4, based on his observations in v 3.

    Oh--faith, hope and love. Haven't we heard that somewhere before?
     
  8. RAdam

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    We should look for fruit of the Spirit. We should look for these evidences the bible gives of a born again child of God. If you find one who believes that Jesus is the Christ he is born of God, period. There are ways to positively assert one is a child of God. That said, we must guard against declaring that one isn't a child of God. If we fail to see evidence, we cannot really assert they are a child of God, but we also cannot assert they aren't. We must refrain from that type of judgement. The Lord alone knows the heart. The Lord knoweth them that are His. We must only go as far as we have scripture and no farther. We must commit that judgement to God. There will be a day of the manifestation of the sons of God.
     
  9. walkbyfaith

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    How do we know?

    Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
     
  10. InHisGrip

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    Could it be that we Americans (who have much more of an individualistic focus than the early church did) have read more into the passages than are truly there?

    I am tending to believe that while Judas was definitely "chosen" for his role (See John 17), maybe it is the PLAN that is predestined, not the PERSON - as we try to make it fit the theology we have been taught. Read Ephesians 1 with that lens.

    11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

    If it were the PERSON that were predestined, what do you do with verse 13?
     
  11. BobinKy

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    Can someone explain why the label "elect" matters?

    Just trying to understand.

    ...Bob
     
  12. Gina B

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    When push comes to shove it is difficult to know. Plenty show fruit but later examination proves selfish motives, false motives, or ones based in false beliefs.

    That doesn't negate our responsibilities where preaching and teaching are concerned though. We are told to preach Christ and for those that claim Christ, we are to help them grow.

    If we do that we have done the right thing. If we fail in that we have failed in our basic Christian task.

    So I agree with you. It doesn't matter from the standpoint of what we as believers should do.

    Quite simple.
     
  13. Winman

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    1John 5:12 tells you exactly how to know if you are saved.

    1 John 5:12 These things have I written unto you that believe on the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the Son of God.

    Have you believed on Jesus? Have you come to him in your heart and cast yourself on him, depending on him alone to save you? If so, then you can KNOW you are saved. How? By the Word of God, by these things written, by the scriptures.

    Do not trust your feelings, one day you will feel good and believe yourself saved. The next day you feel bad and doubt.

    You cannot trust your actions, nobody is faithful all the time, although if you live in continuous sin that is a bad sign.

    No, trust God's word. If you sincerely went to Jesus and trusted him, then you can KNOW by God's word you are saved and therefore elect.
     
  14. charles_creech78

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    Well to me saying that you know is excluding faith. Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. With out faith you can not please GOD. How can you truly know if you have not seen? But blessed are they that have not seen but still believed! We hope for it which is our faith in God. Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope (FAITH): but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
    You are excluding both hope and faith by saying you know and scents you know you are saved what ARE YOU WAITING FOR? How do you have any hope our faith?
     
  15. convicted1

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  16. convicted1

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    Bro. Daniel,

    I know that this is a common stance amongst the ORBs, but here are some scriptures for you to chew on.


    Luke 1:67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

    68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

    69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

    70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

    71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

    74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

    75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

    76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

    77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

    I know that this is talking about what John the Baptist was going to do, but it states in verse 77 "to give knowledge of salvation".

    1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

    4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

    6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    7Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

    8Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

    9He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

    10He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

    11But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

    12I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

    13I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

    14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

    15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

    16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    17And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

    18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

    20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

    21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

    22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    23Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

    24Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

    25And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

    26These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

    27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

    29If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

    1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

    Bro. Daniel,

    There is more to our salvation than just a mere "hope". The "knowledge of salvation" is concerning the "inner man", which has received salvation, and no longer hopes to receive it, because it has salvation. The "hope" pertains to our "flesh", meaning it hasn't received the change yet, and has to "hope"(pr wait) for it. I hope this helps!! I love you, Bro. Daniel!! :thumbs:



    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  17. charles_creech78

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    I understand what you are saying about the hope. Let me ask you brother do you know 100% you are saved without excluding your faith? The Just shall live by faith! Love you to.
     
  18. convicted1

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    Bro Daniel,

    I know that I am saved, but the "know" is stronger when God pours His Spirit upon me. I have my doubts, but when they come, I go to Him, and He shows me where I stand with Him!! :thumbs:

    Now, when I gave my hand to the church to be baptized, I was doing it "knowing" what He did for me. If I say now, "I don't know for sure if I am saved or not", then I wasted my time in be baptized at the Turkey Creek church in the Sardis Association. Now, my knowledge takes nothing away from faith, for without faith, there is no knowledge. If I don't know something about my salvation, I sure wouldn't take the stand when they called on me to preach. I heard a Brother say this one time;"I would hate to say 'I don't know if I am going to heaven or not', and then tell the people I want you to go to heaven with me." Knowledge is in our soul Brother Daniel(because it has acheived salvation), whereas the "physical body" hasn't been chaged yet.....herein is where our hope is....the resurrection morning, when our bodies are changed from physical to Spiritual!!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  19. charles_creech78

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    I know what I have experienced! I guess what I am trying to say is this when I see him for myself and not another then I will be satisfied. I am still in this flesh and I do have my doubts sometimes. I guess that is why I cannot say I am a 100% on it. Keeps me humbled.
    I have faith that I am saved and that he is able to keep me till the day of redemption and with patience I wait for it. I also know there has been a big change in this man. I understand fully of what you are saying brother and have in joyed the talk. "know" it stronger when God pours His Spirit upon me.:thumbs: No other feeling in this life like it! God bless.
     
  20. Winman

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    You can trust someone and still have doubt. Let's say a stranger asks to borrow your car. You have doubts as you do not know him, but you decide to take a chance and let him have it.

    Did you trust him? Yes, you let him take the car. Do your doubts negate the fact that you trusted him? No, doubts or not, you let him take your car, you trusted him.

    And that is what 1 John 5:12 is saying. It is saying that if you came in your heart to Jesus and put your soul in his hands, that these words are written to let you KNOW you are saved.

    It doesn't matter if you doubtonce in awhile. What matters is if you came to Jesus for him to save you. If you put your life in his hands, then you trusted him, just as you trusted the stranger by putting your car in his hands. That stranger might lie and steal your car, but Jesus will never fail anyone who puts their life in his hands.
     

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