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How does a Preterist Determine what is Metaphoric and what is Literal in Prophecy

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, Jun 6, 2011.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    No not all covenants supercede others. The Noahic covenant was not superceded, God will never destroy the earth with a flood again.

    The Abrahamic covenant is not superceded in the fact that the land was promised to Abraham and his seed forever, they have yet to possess it all but they will in the Messianic Kingdom.

    really?






    The Davidic covenant is not superceded by another, David was promised that his son would reign over Israel from his throne as Messiah. That too has yet to come to pass but will in the Millinial Kingdom.

    really?




    The Adamic covenant was not superceded a saviour would come to pay the penalty for the sins of mankind. Faith was required for salvation and grace was the means "grace through faith" saved Adam and Eve and everyone who has ever been saved.

    So no one covenant does not supercede the other and Grace through faith has always and will always be the means of Slavation for all mankind.[/QUOTE]
     
  2. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the Christian of NT tiimes though ONLY under the new Covenant as the relationship between us and God now?

    that Jesus is the "Amen and The yes" to us as believers to ALL the promises of God!
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Believers are under a "New Covenant." It is compared to an "Old Covenant" in the Book of Hebrews. But that doesn't negate all other covenants. And it doesn't negate covenants that are given specifically to the Jewish nation. They are still Jews. We do not believe in Replacement Theology. And their promises still remain intact. The promise given to Noah will never be rescinded. God is not going to destroy this world with a flood. Period! That was a covenant made between God and Noah and the rainbow as a sign of the covenant. The whole Bible must be looked at.
     
  4. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    So its Covenants between God and the Jews/world in general/ and the Church through New Covenant?
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    If you study the Book of Hebrews it always refers to a "New Covenant" which is a better covenant. The Hebrews still have their Old Covenant. When a Jew becomes a believer the Old Covenant is done away with. But those covenants are not the only ones in the Bible.
    Someday Jesus will sit on the Throne of David--the Davidic Covenant.
    The Noahic Covenant is still here. God has not destroyed this world.
     
  6. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]

    For your first really on Israel never fully possessing the land we see Judges 3: 1 Now these are the nations which the LORD left, to prove Israel by them, even as many of Israel as had not known all the wars of Canaan;
    2 Only that the generations of the children of Israel might know, to teach them war, at the least such as before knew nothing thereof;
    3 Namely, five lords of the Philistines, and all the Canaanites, and the Sidonians, and the Hivites that dwelt in mount Lebanon, from mount Baalhermon unto the entering in of Hamath.
    4 And they were to prove Israel by them, to know whether they would hearken unto the commandments of the LORD, which he commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
    5 And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, Hittites, and Amorites, and Perizzites, and Hivites, and Jebusites:

    It appears they dwelt amoung the land with other nations, never fully conquering those nations they were commanded to utterly destroy.

    The Davidic covenant seen in:
    2 Samuel 7:8 Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel:
    9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth.
    10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime,
    11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
    12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
    13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
    14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
    15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
    16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
    17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
    18 Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, Who am I, O Lord GOD? and what is my house, that thou hast brought me hitherto?
    19 And this was yet a small thing in thy sight, O Lord GOD; but thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come. And is this the manner of man, O Lord GOD?
    20 And what can David say more unto thee? for thou, Lord GOD, knowest thy servant.

    And in:
    Psalms 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
    31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
    32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
    33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
    34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
    35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
    36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
    37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah

    Notice verse 34 God will not break his covenant with David. The rule of the Davidic family will be as a faithful witness in heaven.

    Riterated to Mary in: Luke 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
    31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
    32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    Notice especially verse 33, this has yet to happen.

    Then Revelation 20 we see the King on the Millineal Throne in Jerusalem:
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Christ reigning 1000 years upon this earth. We see nothing that says the destruction of Jerusalem would begin the Kingdom but if it did then what is the period of time we live in? Once the1000 year Kingdom has ended then we see:
    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
    7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    So are you saying we are now in the New Jerusalem? On the new heaven and earth. Because if Christ came in 70 A.D. the Kingdom would have lasted 1000 years with as Revelation 20 tells us in verse 6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" that the believers would reign with him and be priest for 1000 years. So what is the period we are living in?
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    #127 Iconoclast, Sep 8, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2011
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    revmac,you asked;
    I along with all post mill ...and amill brethren believe the thousand years to signify the fulness of the time period as you know......like when it says the Lord owns the cattle on a thousand hills....

    We are living in the Kingdom of God now....Jesus is ruling in Heaven and on earth ruling in the midst of His enemies.....many of them say....

    The gospel is going worldwide to harvest each and every lost sheep...the gospel is always victorious
     
  9. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Yes but their is a difference between the Kingdom of God and the Millinial Reign of the Jewish Messiah, the Jews believed in the literal earthly reign of the Messiah. They were looking for that and overlooked what Daniel said about the Messiah being cut off. They believed in a Messianic Kingdom that was coming. John says it will be a literal 1000 year reign and then the New Jerusalem comes down and rest upon the New Earth with a New Heaven.
    What is missed by many and a very interesting passage is in Revelation 19.
    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Now notice this is Christ coming in Judgement of the Gentile nations. Which I believe has yet to happen. Next notice He brings with Him an army clothed in white raiment. Who is said to have white raiment in scripture?
    Notice Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
    and 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
    coupled with Revelation 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
    Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    All point to the believers of the church revelation 19 is very clear the bride (i.e. the church) is clothed in White raiment and then the army coming with Christ in Revelation 19:14 says they are "clothed in fine linen, white and clean". So now the question when did the church, the bride go to be with Him in heaven in order to come back to earth with Him. If you consider yourself part of the Bride then you will be with Him when He returns, John was very clear on this in Revelation.
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Revmac,
    In premill dispensationalism yes there is

    In post and amill no there is not
    here is a staunch amill professor...opposing the postmill men of today; he deals with this idea called jewish dreams
    http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/jewish_dreams.html


    revmac.....this idea so prominent in dispensationalism [jewish messiah]
    does not fit all of scripture as well as the other positions....

    in other words....what about all the saints before Israel was a nation?
    Do they have a Christ also??? sure they do.

    Physical Israel was elected by God as a type or shadow of the true Israel which has now come to earth from the Kingly reign of the Lord Jesus Christ from the heavenly reality!
    That is why our citizenship is said to be in heaven....now
    What the Jews did not understand was the nature of the Kingdom.

    At this point I do not believe dispensationalism has the correct view of the kingdom either....that is why I am feeling much more comfortable with the puritan/reformer understanding of the kingdom rule of Jesus...right now.

    RM...if I am wrong in this I will be okay with whatever manifests itself,
    pre
    historic pre
    post
    a

    I like the view of the postmill in that they stress holy ,kingdom living now, and pressing forth with the great commission now.
    Whatever view is correct needs to do this......not hide like a turtle,or ostritch, waiting to be resecued from a one world gov.antichrist..who wants to take my bible away.
    I have been in both kinds of churches. In my experience it seems as if those who still have the pre-mill prophecy sweet tooth spend more time looking for the mark of the beast, or who is the anti-christ.....then Jesus clear commands to serve Him in a holy -servant -son relationship.
    I am pretty sure that is not your case, or that not all pre-mill follow this pattern....Johnny Mac is the prime example I would guess.....but let me ask you REVMAC....have you seen what I am talking about?
     
  11. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I have seen some specualte and guess even seen those who said it was Henry Kissinger back in the day.
    Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
    19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
    20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
    21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
    22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
    23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
    25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
    26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
    27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    This beast shall come and war with the Saints until the Ancient of days (Christ) comes and destroys Him and sets up His Kingdom. This is not Christ coming against Israel in judgement but against the gentile world power. Notice in verse 25 this beast or world leader will rule the earth for a time, times and 1/2 a time.
    Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
    37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
    38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things
    Gives more information about him, something many folks miss or I feel they miss, notice "nor the desire of women" he will not be married and I believe he will be as many of the folks in San Fransisco to term it where we will understand.
    The problem that the post-mil, amils must deal with is the church saints coming with Christ at His second advent. The army that comes with Christ, is said to be in fine linen, clean and white, Rev. 19 14, that as we see is a reference to belivers. So as belivers there should be no fear of living for God or someone coming to take our bibles away, if as Pre-Mil, Pre-Trib system teaches the church and we as believers will be kept from the time of tribulation. It (the trib) will be the culmination of Daniels 70 weeks of years, the 7 years that is referenced throughout scripture and this thread. Christ will return in His ressurected body with an Army clothed in fine linen clean and white. He will set His feet on the Mount of Olives and it will split in half Zechriah tells us and He will conquer the nations and rule from Zion. We shall rule with Him, the greater our service for Him on earth the greater our eternal reward and position in the Messianic Kingdom.
    As for Enoch and the other anti-deluvians they too will share in all of this, and the Covenant with Adam covers them with the promised savior.
     
  12. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    Two questions:

    1. Which evangelical christian theological camp(s) do not stress holy, kingdom living now and do not press forth with the great commission?

    2. Why is it that here were are 100+ posts and no preterist has been even willing to attempt to answer the OP question?
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This is a very good question. Let's look at the OP again:
    We know that Christ came a first time, as per Isa.9:6
    But when has "the government been upon his shoulders," as in the very same verse??
     
  14. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    of course DHK you are correct. And if the "already, not yet" theory on the kingdom is correct, it would mean that the King (Jesus) is ruling over a partial kingdom at best and is not in full control of the realm. This is of course unacceptable to those who believe that the King will rule with an iron scepter, making this Kingdom a future entity by default.

    DHK, I also wanted to mention that I agree with you where you equate some of the preterist thinking as in line with the Jehavah Witnesses thinking. Of course the theology is different but the thinking that gets one there is the same. For example, JWs and pretersits both, inspite of a lack of historical and Biblical support think that Jesus has already returned and we are in the Kingdom now. I think it is ironic that CRI is run by a man who is preterist and yet he cannot see his own error.
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Jesus rules over His KIngdom right now.The Kingdom is growing.
    He is in full control.He rules with a rod of Iron.


    He uses man [the church] to spread the Kingdom
    All the kingdom parables show that it takes time for growth.

    There is a major difference between partial preterists, and full preterists. Those who deny PP are in error. The Kingdom has began and is growing.
     
    #135 Iconoclast, Sep 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2011
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
  17. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    Explain the medieval church as part of the kingdom and the reason(s) for the protestant reformation. Educate us on why the seven churches in Revelation, consisting of born again believers were still subject to judgement. While you are at it, take a shot at answering the OP question.
     
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