How Does Arminian theology Treat Jesus "if I be lifted up" saying?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Nov 22, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,126
    Likes Received:
    52
    2 questions...

    Could that instead be stating that if he is lifted up and recognized as being Messiah, those doing such will be drawn to him?

    And if all men will be drawn to Him, is that automatically in a saving way ?
    And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

    John 12:32 Nasb
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    God never draws anyone in robot-programming way.

    In john 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL unto Me"

    And in John 6 - no one can come to Christ unless they are DRAWN. And ALL are Drawn.

    Since ALL do not come to Christ - it is obvious that those who are drawn are not zapped/reprogrammed into coming to Christ. Rather the DRAWING of John 12:32 enables all that depravity disables even by Calvinist standards.

    And God "draws ALL" mankind unto Himself.

    The Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just Calvinism's arbitrarily selected "FEW".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Reformed

    Reformed
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,227
    Likes Received:
    57
    I am assuming the phrase that is up for discussion in John 12:32 is "draw all men". The word for "draw" is ἑλκύω (hel-koo'-o). According to Strong's it means "properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing." The word can also mean drag or pull. The attraction-power involved with the drawing of John 12:32 is Jesus Christ on the cross ("being lifted up from the earth"). What stronger attraction can there be then the Son of God being our propitiation?

    Taken by itself this passage can lead to a misunderstanding of the type and scope of Christ's drawing. Unless someone is a Universalist, this verse does not mean that Christ is going to save all men. Neither does it mean that all men will be invited to Christ. The only way this phrase can make sense is to interpret it through a larger lens.

    First, does "will draw all men to Myself" equate to salvation? Is our Lord saying that those whom He draws will be saved? I think salvation is implied by the text. But since we know that not all men will be saved we run into a bit of a conundrum. I believe the answer is found in seeing this phrase through the lens of a specified group. All those who are drawn will be saved, but not all are drawn. To be fair, our Arminian friends will use this passage to make their point. That is why I do not see this passage as a commentary on election.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

    God gave Christ as the "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World" 1John 2:2 NIV.

    The Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and Judgment" John 16.

    "I will draw ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

    No text says that all convicted will come to Christ and be saved.

    No text says that all drawn will come to Christ and be saved.

    But the "Drawing" in John 12:32 fully enables the choice to accept the Gospel that depravity disables - even by Calvinist standards.

    No because God uses the "Whosoever WILL model" not the "better living through better pre-programming or better min-zapping" model.

    Hence the "appeal model" of the Arminian Gospel that God sovereignly chose is seen in 2Cor 5 "We BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled unto God" and the fact that on the cross "God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself". (again in 2Cor 5)

    Perhaps it is a clue that your prior assumption that the "all drawn will be saved" (a text not found in the Bible) is flawed.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,126
    Likes Received:
    52
    Those whose sins have been atoned for/paid for by the Cross will be those drawn to Him and get saved, are you saying that ALL sinners have had sins atoned for, all drawn to Him, yet they still refuse and reject Him, and thus undo His reconcilation between them and the Father? that Will of mna exceeds will of God to save them?
     
  6. Inspector Javert

    Inspector Javert
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,256
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    BobRyan

    God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

    God does not say this as you keep posting it. Stop it.
    God is very willing that many perish...multitudes

    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
     
  8. Protestant

    Protestant
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    953
    Likes Received:
    63
    Hey, Iconoclast, your use of keen biblical, irrefutable logic is 'divine'!
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (NKJV)

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.(KJV)

    Your argument is "with the text".


    Sadly - you simply state your position as a direct contradiction of scripture.

    Probably a Calvinist solution to Bible texts that refute Calvinism.


    "HE came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1

    Places your Matt 7 text in context.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4

    YES ALL are covered by the atoning sacrifice "he is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2

    And the unqualified universal "ALL" are drawn "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32

    But no text says "ALL drawn will be saved"

    "HE came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1

    That is a good Calvinist phrase "all drawn will get saved" - but to find it you have to "quote you".

    Hence the problem with Calvinism.

    ALL sinners have been covered by the sin offering (Is 53:10) the "Atoning Sacrifice" 1John 2:2 (NIV). It is global, unbiased, not limited, unlimited, non-discriminating.

    But God's teaching on Atonement in Lev 16 (Day of Atonement) does not end with the sin offering of Lev 16:15. Rather the full Bible doctrine on "Atonement" includes the High Priestly Ministry of Lev 16:15-32 - the High Priestly Ministry of Christ.

    Christ as sin offering. - Atoning Sacrifice.
    Christ as High Priest. -

    Heb 8:1-5 Christ takes His seat at the right hand of the Father - as High Priest - and does His work in the Heavenly sanctuary - seated at the Father's right hand.

    Christ's work in heaven - is individual and specific Heb 9 - cleansing our consciences from dead works - for those who draw near to Him in that role -

    Thus we do not have universalism.



    "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1

    Your argument is with the text.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,188
    Likes Received:
    207
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Excellent points from scripture.

    and as you pointed out

    John 12:32 -
    If I be lifted up"....(he was)..."I will draw All men unto myself" (that happened).

    And even Calvinists when going on about the importance of the drawing of God - in John 6 will finally admit that the drawing of God enables the CHOICE that depravity disables.

    Thus the "Drawing of ALL men" disables Calvinism.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    BobRyan


    Not at all.....when you understand......but is long-suffering TO US-WARD...you will understand what this verse really teaches..

    No Bob....sadly you ignore the context....look at 3:1-
    3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

    2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

    look at verse 8;
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    Do you see it yet??? Peter is writing to Christians contrasted to the scoffing unbelievers....work through the whole passage...it is an Us vs. them thing...



    The calvinist simply looks at the context that you ignore.


    Nope.
     
  14. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    What a ridiculous argument, why would God have to be long-suffering toward anyone when he could instantly regenerate them and make them irresistibly willing to repent?

    You've gotta throw your brain in the trash to believe this silliness.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,126
    Likes Received:
    52
    paul response to how the sovereingty of God worked in Romans was to be just speechless, as he realised far above his reasoning, yet you call that silliness instead?
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,126
    Likes Received:
    52
     
  17. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    What in the world are you talking about?

    What is silly is the idea that if Calvinism is true, why would God ever have to be longsuffering and patient waiting for one of the elect to repent when he could instantly regenerate that person?

    Now, if you can't figure out how ridiculous that is, then ask your youngest child and he will tell you.
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4

    hmm when I "think like you" then I will "think like you"???

    How "instructive".



    Indeed he is - but at no point does Peter say "All non-Christians who will later become Christians - well God does not care about them - because they are not reading this letter now" -- even by your own logic this is the case.

    The slice-and-dice that Calvinism "needs" to do when God makes a sweeping statement - noted.

    Now lets look at the "unlimited ALL" in 2Peter 3 so contradicting of Calvinist doctrine.

    3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.


    God who "So loved the WORLD" is concerned with "the WORLD".


    Peter points to unlimited world-wide reach of God - desiring ALL to come to repentance and yet if they persists in evil - destroying the entire planet.


    There is no fictional "well all the saved and also all the lost that will one day be saved - but then nobody else to be concerned about" in the text.


    Which is where Calvinism fails in 2Peter 3.


    All the name calling that Biblicist may wish to do against Arminians does not change the text.



    in Christ,


    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    True - so a lot of hedging, redefining, parsing and equivocating would need to be added to the text by calvinists to get calvinism to survive the text.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...