How does one lose his salvation?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by CubeX, Mar 27, 2005.

  1. CubeX

    CubeX
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    I'm typing a paper and need to know how a person is supposed to lose his salvation. Is it through not obeying God? What EXACTLY or GENERALLY is it?

    This is NOT a debate over if one can lose his salvation or not, but a study of what is asserted to the means of how one can lose his salvation.

    ***This will take the ASSUMPTION that one can lose his salvation. It does not mean that I, nor anyone else (without directly stating) does believe that salvation can be lose. Please carefully consider the word-choices you make as so to help all keep the original context of the statement.

    Thanks!
    -David
     
  2. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Cubex;
    It's very simple "rejection of the Holy Spirit"
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  3. whatever

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    It's very simple "rejection of the Holy Spirit"
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Mike,

    Exactly how does one reject the Holy Spirit? Some examples would probably be helpful.

    whatever
     
  4. CubeX

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    whatever has a great point! What would we define this "rejection" as and how would we come about doing it? Since we all (here) believe (or if not, then we will assume) that the Bible is the source of truth in theological arguments (arguments about God and doctrine for this case), as this is, it will be helpful to state some passages so that we can analyse the text.

    Thanks!
    -David
     
  5. whetstone

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    Personally I feel that the Bible says we ALL reject the Holy Spirit. If this is the case- and Christ is able to save those who reject the Holy Spirit...how would further rejection be possible? Didn't Christ overcome that rejection?!
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    While i've seen many different scriptural
    quoting "plan of salvation"; i've never seen
    a "plan of unsalvation".

    Here is an intersting verse. What do you
    make of it?

    John 3:16 (Geneva Bible)

    For God so loued the worlde, that hee hath
    giuen his onely begotten Sonne,
    that whosoeuer beleeueth in him,
    should not perish, but haue euerlasting
    life
    .

    What does "not perish" mean?
    Does it mean not die physically?
    Does it mean not die spiritually?
    Does it mean not die spiritually if he gets
    baptized? Does it mean not die spiritually
    if he doesn't get divorced?

    What is "everlasting life"?
    Life till one messes up? Life until one
    gets depressed and gives up? Life until
    the government changes and the plan of
    salvation changes?
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    A word on ownership of Salvation.

    My house belongs to a mortgage holding company.
    I get to park my care there.
    I get to pay the utilities there.
    I get to keep my furnature there.
    I get to make mortgage paypents on the house.
    I get to eat there.
    I do not own it.

    Revelation 7:10 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible ):

    And they cried out in a loud voice:
    Salvation belongs to our God,
    who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!

    This shows exact ownership of salvation.
    Sure, I'll use phrase like "my salvation" as it
    pertaineth to me. But i don't OWN my salvation,
    my salvation is owned by God and the Lamb.
    I really don't think they will be loosing it.
     
  8. Phillip

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    It's very simple "rejection of the Holy Spirit"
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]This does not answer the original question. This only explains why a person would not be saved in the first place. The question was, how do you LOOSE salvation. In order to loose something, you have to have it to start with.

    This is the reason I cannot answer because I find no way in the Bible to loose what God owns (as Ed explained very well.) [​IMG]
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    CubeX
    I don't know your age and that really is important only in this regard. There were whole centuries of time when man "believed" the moon was made of green cheese". As we look back we, who now have the "truth", know for certain that it is not "green cheese" at all but rather a buttery creamy yellow colored cheese. So what was once believed is believed no longer but has been displaced with new belief.

    One assumes your paper is going to state that man's salvation is "through faith", "faith" being "sustained or continuous belief". Just as man has the ability to change his beliefs on the basis of "new information" regarding the old belief. Man has the ability to also, because of "the cares of life", forget what he believed in the first place. God made man to be "autonomous" meaning that God is not pulling each individual man's strings.

    As we progress through life we pass through our "gullible years" in which we believe whatever an older and wiser person tells us. Then through the silent years when we do not want to absorb new stuff, then through the break away years where no older person knows anything, and into our early adult years where we discover by "experience" that the old people did really know something afterall, and we once again seek them out. We turn to the writings of those who have gone before and discover that there are significant differences in how man perceives God. This causes us to question what we believe about God, and if we are following the wrong lead, we too can lose whatever faith we may have had in God.

    Another way is that we are innately able to "hear" God, through His Holy Spirit. You know, that little guy with the glowing ring floating over his head, that sits on you right shoulder and gives you "sound" advice in your right ear. But, there is that other little guy with the pointy horns carrying a pitchfork that stands on your left shoulder shouting all sorts of wrong information into your left ear. Well, we men, having a disobedient nature to begin with, inherited from Adam, get really tired of the admonitions coming from the right, and we'd really rather listen to the enticements coming from the left. The more we listen to the left, the more we shut out the right, until eventually, we cannot even hear the right any more. Then we forget about God because we've turned him off!

    Then, there is the scriptural reasons given in the Letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3. Recommend reading the admonishments in these letters. We each are found in one of those seven churchs. We each do at least one of the things spoken against in those letters. And it is by failing to heed the warnings there, that apply to us, that we too suffer the consequences spoken of for that offense.

    Bottom line, if we come to faith and do not do all that is necessary to retain our faith, we risk losing faith, and with it our salvation.

    There is only one way that man loses salvation, and that is by losing faith. There are many ways to lose faith!
     
  10. CubeX

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    This here too is a good point. Have we all rejected the Holy Spirit? Does the Bible teach this? However, whetstone, the fact that you stated that you "personally" felt a certain way about a doctrine is irrelevant. We must learn whether or not the Bible tells us that we do or not.

    In the context of this verse, the word "perish" indicates the ceasing of ones being. Repeatedly throughout the New Testament it is stated "Why fear those who can harm the body but not the soul? God can exterminate both!" (Paraphrase mine). Also, in using the term "everlasting", we can logically deduct that we are talking of something "eternal" and thus, we can determine that the word perish is also referring to an eternal state. Thus we can faithfully, legislatively assume that Christ is referring to the eternal part of an individual. Another thing is that the literary use of the word "perish" here indicates an assumed state that is awaiting all. For if it did not, the "whoever" in this passage would only mean a choice few, a complete contradiction to the Greek text that states "everyone". "Everlasting life" seems to indicate a state of being (life) that will not end (everlasting - eternal), but is continual. Therefore, what we can conclude is that God gave Christ as a means to bring eternal life to a finite mankind.

    -David
     
  11. CubeX

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    Ed Edwards, thank-you for your input, but please maintain that this will NOT be a debate on whether one can lose his salvation or not, it will take the assumption that he can and then, answer by what means can salvation be lost.

    Thanks
    -David
     
  12. CubeX

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    I am sorry for having to say this, but this argument made very little sense at all. After reading it several times, I concluded that you were placing this argument on a basis that the facts are irrelevant and that what is "felt" or "percieved" by an individual or society is correct until that individual or society decides to alter the belief. This was completely relativistic and irrelevant.

    **Note: I am disregarding the statement about one's salvation being through faith and my paper assuming so until I have thoroughly thought through it and the issue becomes necessary to discuss.

    Again, you maintain a very relativistic view. However, your statements on free-will I will accept. In a sense, God did make us autonomous, but if we were completely autonomous, it would not make any sense at all that salvation is needed; that God spoke to the prophets of old; and that God hears our prayers. Only within limitations would it make sense. But again, the free-will aspect is acceptable and recognizable.

    Although this is quite a true statement, it assumes many things about me personally (that I am ignorant to the states of child-developement and adolescence) and is not relevant top the issue at hand.

    This presents a view of the relationship between God and man, Satan and man, God and Satan, and good and evil that should be saved to discuss in another topic. I welcome you to start one if you feel led to.

    Now here is a statement that is useful! [​IMG] Sorry for the hard time I've been giving you, but this is all that you needed to post!

    Thank-you for this statement. Could you please bring some Scriptural references for us to use in our discussion involving this?

    Thanks, and again, all apologies for undermining some of your statements, I only wanted to help you filter out what is not needed for your next post(s).

    Thanks again,
    -David
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    Sorry, to me your question
    is like "What color is salvation?"
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    While I agree with what you've said Ed, If you for some foolish reason should violate the agreement and not pay the mortgage payment, because you either did not "earn" the money for the payment or you lost the money, and kept doing that for a few months, you would lose your privilege of doing those things in that house that belongs to someone else. The money for the privilege is FAITH!

    True, Salvation belongs to God, but God does not save those who lack the required faith!
     
  15. CubeX

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    I did not want to have to put forth my own statements directly, but this requires one. God does not save those who do not obey, not those who lack faith. God gives commands, those who do not obey are the ones lacking. Now, they may not have enough faith to encourage their obedience, but that is only a factor in the direct clause.

    Please keep on subject. If you would like to independently discuss this, please start a new topic. I'd be glad to participate.
    -David
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    I did not want to have to put forth my own statements directly, but this requires one. God does not save those who do not obey, not those who lack faith. God gives commands, those who do not obey are the ones lacking. Now, they may not have enough faith to encourage their obedience, but that is only a factor in the direct clause.

    Please keep on subject. If you would like to independently discuss this, please start a new topic. I'd be glad to participate.
    -David
    </font>[/QUOTE]Well CubeX what you just said is this:

    For by grace ye are saved through obedience and not of yourselves it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

    What Scripture says is this:

    For by grace are ye saved THROUGH FAITH, an not of yourselves it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

    You are forcing Salvation back under the law! God Gives his Salvation under Grace!

    The Topic is Salvation, I am on topic!
     
  17. CubeX

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    By obedience, I did not mean for to replace faith with obedience. We were clearly on different, specific topics within this area. I only wanted to assert that you can lose faith without losing salvation because everyone doubts. And if there is a point in which you can lose so much faith that you lose your salvation, where is that point? Is it defined in Scripture? Like I said: I did not want to have to put forth my own statements directly. Why? Because I have not formally associated all my thoughts as of yet when it comes to theological arguments.

    The topic is NOT salvation, it is how one can LOSE salvation. There is a difference. It we are talking of salvation in a topical index format, we are in a smaller category within a discussion on salvation. Let us keep to the topic of How One Can Lose His Salvation.

    Let us throw out this episode and continue forward.
    -David
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Then the answer is this:

    As many ways as there are to lose faith, there are that many ways to lose salvation!

    FAITH is the Key to salvation, Yes, God owns salvation, but we either have the key or we do not.

    Doubt is not loss of faith, but it can lead to loss of faith.
     
  19. CubeX

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    Ok, so now, can you quote Scripture for me?

    Thanks!
    -David
     
  20. Wes Outwest

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    Since you are writing a paper, you must be in a course that requires you to do research. You either have, or have access to a computer, you are on-line or you wouldn't be posting here, and there are a number of "on line" bibles that you can do "searches by words and phrases". Here are a couple of keywords to start with.

    FAITH

    All the forms of Believe.

    Fall away, with its variety of words and forms.

    abandon

    lose

    Wander away

    Drift away

    leave the fold

    seek

    SAVE, saviour, and Salvation

    Book of Life,

    blot

    and there are many more. The problem is, if you are not familiar with the bible by having read through it a few times, the keywords may lead you to things that will not help you unless you know from your reading experience what is being said.

    NEVER, NEVER, NEVER rely on the meaning of any one scripture unless you are certain of its context. The context may be a few verses before and after, or it may be a chapter or two before and after the specific verse.

    I'm sorry that I do not have the time to be your research assistant, I have a full time job of my own to take care of. If I didn't I'd be happy to assist you.
     

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