How does SDA Understand paul In Romans 10:4?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Yeshua1, May 1, 2013.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.

    For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.

    English Standard Version (©2001)
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

    How can it be ANY more clear that Chrsitians are freed to serve god under Grace now, NOT by keeping of the law?
     
  2. salzer mtn

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    Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

    3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    The Jews believing in the law to justify tried to establish their own righteousness by a works belief. Christ established a righteousness for those that would believe on him by keeping all the laws demand while here on earth, 1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. The Jews, as are the works monglers of today are ignorant of this righteousness. There is no law to keep for salvation to the believer. the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The law is fulfilled in Christ as our substitute. This everlasting righteousness is imputed unto us that believe. His righteousness that was wrought out for the believer is put on our account. His righteousness becomes our righteousness. Rom 9:30-32 What shall we say then ? that the Gentiles which followed not after righteousness, have attained to the righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel which followed after the LAW of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore ? because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law, for they stumbled at that stumblingstone. Gal 2:21 I do not frusterate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
     
    #2 salzer mtn, May 1, 2013
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  3. Yeshua1

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    Grace of God towards us is so scandelous, to quote chuckSwindoll!
     
  4. BobRyan

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    4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    The Jews believing in the law to justify tried to establish their own righteousness


    The Ten Commandments were never a means for a lost person to become saved.

    I think we can see that in Galatians 3 as well as Romans 10:4.
    God does not say to the lost "IF you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments".
    He only says that to the already-saved born-again Christian.

    Paul does not say to the lost sinner "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" in 1Cor 7:19. He only says it to the saints in the Church.

    Christ does not say of the lost "From Sabbath to Sabbath" in that new earth of Rev 21 " shall all mankind come before Me to Worship". Rather that is only true of the saved saints.

    1John 2:3-6 does not say that the lost need to walk as Jesus walked and keep his commandments if they want to tell the truth about being lost.

    Paul does not say as a lost person "Do WE then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, May 1, 2013
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  5. Yeshua1

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    Neither does paul EVER say that we MUST keep the law in order to get saved, or kept saved by God, does he?
     
  6. BobRyan

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    No question that no text says that the lost can keep the TEN Commandments such that they become saved.

    However John is clear that those who work and teach and preach and act AGAINST the Commandments of God are not his. As I am sure you will agree.


    "In the Bible" - Paul says "be not deceived" and then tells the church that rebellion against the Law of God - is not the path to heaven.

    1Cor 6.
    5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
    6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
    7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
    8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
    9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    1John 2:
    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.


    John says -
    Rev 22:
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(KJV)

    Christ said

    Mark 7

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


    Matt 5
    16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


    Exodus 20
    6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


    John 14
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


    1 John 5
    2 By this
    we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Rev 14:12
    12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #6 BobRyan, May 4, 2013
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  7. Yeshua1

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    Do you still break all the commandments daily? if you ever lusted/lied/coveted etc you have broken all, and are per your theology not even saved!
     
  8. Gup20

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    Read Genesis 15-17, then Read Galatians 3-4, then read Romans 3-4.

    You will find that Abraham was the first man to be made righteous by his faith in Jesus Christ in Genesis 15. The Bible confirms this in Gal 3.

    Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
    6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

    Gal 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
    6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
    7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
    8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."
    9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

    This scripture LITERALLY says that God preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and when Abraham believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, he was saved (made righteous) by his faith. How do we know God was talking about Jesus Christ?

    Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

    Furthermore, we have to understand that God made Abraham righteous through grace by faith 430 years before the Law of Moses and the 10 commandments were given. So this begs the question - if Abraham was made righteous before the law existed, and Abraham is the faith of those who believe, then what Law is necessary for salvation?

    Gal 3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

    Paul makes the point that The Law cannot invalidate the covenant God made with Abraham. The Law cannot disannul the promise. We always think about it the other way around... but truly, righteousness by faith existed outside of and apart from the law for 430 years, and the Law doesn't change that promise.

    Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

    Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
    10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;

    So what was the purpose of The Law? To teach us that we need salvation... to show us that NO ONE could attain salvation by Works of The Law, and that the ONLY way was by faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ - the same faith that Abraham first had.

    Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
    22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
    24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
    25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
    26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
     
  9. Gup20

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    Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?
    22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
    23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
    24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
    25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
    26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
    27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
    28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
    29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.
    30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."
    31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.
     
  10. Gup20

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    Rom 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
    4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    Christ did come to fulfill the law - but we also fulfill the law. The Law can be fullfilled in 2 ways:

    1. Follow the law, and obtain life
    2. Break the law, and REMAIN in death (Rom 5:12, John 3:18)

    In these two ways, the law is fulfilled. For the believer, our Sin is condemned to and held captive by our flesh, while our spirits are made alive and renewed by the righteousness of Christ.

    Rom 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

    By the death of our flesh, the law is fulfilled in us that says "if you sin you die." That doesn't get undone by faith. Faith provides a way for our spirit to be alive in Christ so that we "survive" our death. Death is banished from our spirit and trapped in our flesh. We become a dual being with a living righteous spirit, and a flesh that is sinful and condemned already.

    In Romans 7:14-25 Paul talks about doing the things he hates, but not doing the things he wants to do - the good things. He says

    Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
    22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
    23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
    25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.​

    The mind is the one place where the flesh (which is sinful and condemned) and the spirit (which is righteous and alive) overlap.

    Rom 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
    6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
    7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
    8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

    I hope it is not lost on you that Paul actually demonstrates this in Romans 7!

    Rom 7:16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
    17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
    19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
    20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

    My wife and I were discussing this once, and she said "that's a bit of a cop-out -- he's saying 'it's not me its the devil'." But I thought about it... he's not saying that... he's saying "It's not me, it's me." But notice he is IDENTIFYING with the HIM that is the righteous one. He is demonstrating what it is to "set your minds on the things of the spirit." He's saying, I sin, but it's not the real me who is sinning. He has re-oriented his thought process to whom he is in the spirit. When you realize this truth, Romans 5 and 6 make a lot of sense... why go on sinning WHEN THAT'S NOT WHO YOU REALLY ARE.
     
  11. evangelist-7

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    No matter how often I post this, people on Christian boards just can't seem to grasp it
    ... because it goes against the grain of their hundreds of years of false OSAS teachings.
    What, another false teaching! ... Dah, eastenah! (Bulgarian for "Yes, it's true!").


    1 John 1:
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
    and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


    Yes, you guessed it, folks ... another application of Jesus' blood just for you!

    .
     
  12. preacher4truth

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    According to BobRyan and SDAism Christ is the end of the Law at salvation, then THEY take over and the Recording Angel (dreamt up by EGW in a false revelation of satan) watches their works and keeping of the Law AND their idle moments (and more) to determine if they are then to be saved -- or not. Wow. It's all up to them from that point on. Therefore It is NOT Finished with Christ -- it is up to them.

    Thus the work of Christ is made of 'none effect' and they are not perfected by His ONE sacrifice -- THEY must do MORE than Christ to secure it.

    Add to this the false revelations and 'gospel' of EGW and we have 'another' gospel.
     
    #12 preacher4truth, May 6, 2013
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  13. BobRyan

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    BobRyan said:

    Romans 10
    4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
    The Jews believing in the law to justify tried to establish their own righteousness


    The Ten Commandments were never a means for a lost person to become saved.

    I think we can see that in Galatians 3 as well as Romans 10:4.
    God does not say to the lost "IF you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments".
    He only says that to the already-saved born-again Christian.

    Paul does not say to the lost sinner "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" in 1Cor 7:19. He only says it to the saints in the Church.

    Christ does not say of the lost "From Sabbath to Sabbath" in that new earth of Rev 21 " shall all mankind come before Me to Worship". Rather that is only true of the saved saints.

    1John 2:3-6 does not say that the lost need to walk as Jesus walked and keep his commandments if they want to tell the truth about being lost.

    Paul does not say as a lost person "Do WE then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31



    While it might "seem like a good idea" to post an "All Ellen White all the time" response each time I post a Bible text you do not agree with - I can assure you that such solutions do not appeal to the unbiased objective readers.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Yeshua1

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    When God does the investigative judgement over your life, will the Cross of christ be enough to keep you saved, or MUST you have sufficient good works also to make it in?
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    When the bible and prophetess white disagree, and MANY times they do, which tio SDA is the higher authority to heed and obey?
     
  16. BobRyan

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    Sola Scriptura is the principle we find in Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul were so" .

    If Paul HIMSELF was to be tested "sola scriptura" (no matter that they did not have all the NT yet) then how much more so the saints and prophets and whoever else - today.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    The BIG sdifferece is that paul WAS inspired of the Lord Jesus, and he and ellen white contridict each other on their revealtions, so whish has the authority in the SDA?
     
  18. BobRyan

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    You realize of course that you are making a circular argument, since the point in debate with Adventists is that we claim that Paul and Ellen White are in agreement.

    We both knew that - right?

    The question asked of me - was whether sola scriptura testing of all doctrine is the principle accepted by the Seventh-day Adventist church - even in the case of statements made by Ellen White - and I said "yes".

    This is the "ideal" scenario for someone who believes that the doctrines we teach are not found in the Bible - because I have agreed to having the Bible be the test. And in fact that is the rule for the Seventh-day Adventist denomination, so I am not really going out on a limb in that regard.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #18 BobRyan, May 8, 2013
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  19. Yeshua1

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    SDA holds to soul sleep, paul did not
    SDA holds to destruction of sinners, paul did not
    SDA holds that sabbath day ienforeced on church, paul did not
    SDA holds to revlations from god after canon, paul did not
    SDA hiolds to conditional salvation, paul did not
    SDA gholds to a chrsitian may forfeit salvation by investigated judgement after death, paul did not
    SDA holds tomark of beast as sabbath refusal, paul did not

    paul and ellen White agreed, and the SDA has paul superior to her?
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Since you are in game mode not in Bible study mode -- I will join you - only in Bible study mode.

    SDA holds to soul sleep as did Paul in 1Thess 4
    SDA holds to destruction of sinners as did Christ in Matt 10:28 and so Paul in Romans 2
    SDA holds that God's 4th Commandment Sabbath applies to the church, as did Paul in Heb 4 and Acts 15, As did Isaiah in Isaiah 66 - and as does the Baptist Confession of Faith, and as does Andy Stanley, and As did D.L. Moody, and as do Seventh-day Baptists

    SDA holds to revelations from god after canon, paul did Paul in Eph 4:3-11 and in 1Cor 14:1 and 1Thess 5:19-20

    SDA holds to conditional salvation, As did Paul in Heb 6, and Gal 5:1-5, and Romans 11...

    SDA never did hold to the idea that Christians forfeit salvation by investigated judgement after death, apparently Yeshua1 is carrying that torch alone.

    SDA holds tomark of beast as breaking the Law of God - as did John in Rev 13-16.

    --

    I guess I do like your game now that I have played it.

    Thanks.

    Bob
     
    #20 BobRyan, May 10, 2013
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