How does this doctrine effect the way we witness?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Oct 18, 2003.

  1. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Calvinism: How does it effect the way we witness?

    Arminianism: How does it effect the way we witness?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  2. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    Calvinists witness in an effort to find the elect.
    Arminians witness to find "whosoever believeth"
     
  3. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Strangely enough, these two groups are one and the same. You have been shown this plenty of times yet you still pretend as if they are different.

    The answer is that the calvinist can preach teh true gospel without respect to adjusting it to make men comfortable with it. The arminian must struggle with the temptation to persuade men by the sheer force of man's ability. Calvinists fortunately to not have to swing at that boulder with a plastic hammer.
     
  4. Yelsew

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    Oddly enough Larry you have not proved your point! "The elect" and "the whosoevers" have not been proven to be the same group.

    Until it is proven they are the same group, I stick with what I posted.
     
  5. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Have you not read?? We have shown time and again that the elect and whosoever believes are the same group of people. We have repeated it ad nauseum and you have been here long enough to see it.

    The elect are those who have eternal life (2 Tim 2:10; Eph 1:4ff; 2 Thess 2:13; etc, etc. etc). They are the ones against whom no charge can be brought and who cannot be separated from teh love of God (Rom 8:32ff.). The whosoever wills are the ones with eternal life (John 3:16; etc). Clearly, to miss this point is to miss the clear teaching of Scripture. Usually the tact your side takes to argue about how one becomes elect. At least then you don't have to deny the plain teaching of Scripture. However, even that tactic falls short since Scripture is clear that God elects people without respect for what those people do. Either way, this point has been proven so many times it is laughable to say that it hasn't.
     
  6. Yelsew

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    If that's the case, then why all the hullaballue over the teachings of CALVIN? There is no substantial difference between Calvin and Arminius!

    If that's the case, why all the hullaballue about "the elect"? If there is no difference, why all the discussion about the differences?
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Strangely enough, these two groups are one and the same. You have been shown this plenty of times yet you still pretend as if they are different.

    The answer is that the calvinist can preach teh true gospel without respect to adjusting it to make men comfortable with it. The arminian must struggle with the temptation to persuade men by the sheer force of man's ability. Calvinists fortunately to not have to swing at that boulder with a plastic hammer.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, this is exactly what I was thinking when I posted the question. It has been my experience that Calvinists tend to preach the word and allow God to take care of persuading and saving the lost. Arminians tend to focus on man's wisdom and gimmicks and tricks to persuade, scare, and intellectualize the lost into salvation. Has anyone else noticed this?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    The hullabaloo in this case with you is your own failure to understand these basic ideas. If you would listen to us you would know that the difference between the elect and the whosoever will has nothing to do with the conversation at all. It is unfortunate that for all your many posting you have not yet learned to distinguish what the real issues are.
     
  9. Hardsheller

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    Amen Pastor Larry! [​IMG]
     
  10. Yelsew

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    I certainly understand that many here believe that there are preconditioned persons called "the elect" who cannot of their own will refuse to believe and are thereby saved. I certainly understand there are those who post here that believe and state that salvation comes only to those who are "regenerated" and that regeneration comes to the "elect" and that regeneration enables them to believe. I certainly understand that there are those who post here that think in exclusive terms relative to who gets saved, and they always elude to those who get saved as those preconditioned persons called the elect. You can refute that if you wish Larry, but a diligent scan through the previous posts and topics will reveal what I am saying is true. The Calvinist adherents adhere to the doctrine of the elect! If you cannot see that, it just shows that you are in denial!
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    You are a genius ... You have finally figured this out :rolleyes: Of course, I am being sarcastic. It is amazing that you feel this is even remotely relevant and worthy of being posted. Of course we believe in election. News flash: Most arminians do too. The difference is the relation to belief. Arminians believe that election is the result of what man does, or that election is corporate. Calvinists believe that election is individual and without reference to what man does. To borrow the words of Paul, election took place "before the foundation of the world," and therefore before man did anything.

    The fact that you would even make this post seems to indicate just how far out of this conversation you really are. For all your many postings and for all the dialogue that has gone on here, you just don't get it. You create straw men and act like you know everyhing because you can destroy something that very few if anyone at all believes.

    The fact is that the elect and the whosoever will are the same people. We have shown you this. If you wish to pursue it further, start your own thread on the topic. This thread will be returned to its original topic about sharing the gospel with unbelievers.
     
  12. Yelsew

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    That is after all where my first post started. I accurately answered the posted question, but you did not like my answer, and led us away from the topic.
     
  13. Felix

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    Or, we can turn around and ask the question from a different angle:

    Calvinism: When you pray for a lost person, why and/or how do you pray?

    Arminianism: When you pray for a lost person, why and/or how do you pray?

    Felix
     
  14. Joseph_Botwinick

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    If we wanted to start another thread, we could probably re-phrase the question. But, I think I would like to have my original question answered.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  15. FriendofSpurgeon

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    Perhaps this will be of assistance and explains the difference -

    1. When I was in an Arminian church, we talked about "soulwinning" or "winning the lost to Christ." Seemingly, it was all about convincing others about Gospel.

    2. In a Calvinistic church, we talk about "sharing" the Gospel with others. Seemingly, the goal is to "preach the Gospel" and let God take it from there.
     
  16. Pete Richert

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    I don't really think there is a difference. From our human perspective we tell people about the gospel. We could force a decision or not force a decision and that probably has little affect on whether they BELIEVE. I don't think beliefs are usually a matter of decideing. In the Arminian perspective, man has the power to believe on his own. From the Calvinistic perspective; that same man will only believe if he has been regenerated first. But from either persecitve, we preach the gospel and "whosoever believith" is saved.
     
  17. Joseph_Botwinick

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    If man has the power to believe on his own, then doesn't it go to show that man has the ability to save himself and therefore, only has to be convinced to choose in the affirmative. IOW, doesn't the Arminian see this kinda statement and then try to appeal to the human intellectual nature instead of merely preaching the word and letting God take care of the rest. It reminds of people who justify many wacky methods of witnessing by saying that it brought people to the Lord. Nevermind that it might have doctrinal error. The ends justify the means. Instead of merely preaching the word, we appeal to the flesh.

    1 Corinthians 2:1-5
     
  18. Yelsew

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    If man has the power to believe on his own, then doesn't it go to show that man has the ability to save himself and therefore, only has to be convinced to choose in the affirmative. IOW, doesn't the Arminian see this kinda statement and then try to appeal to the human intellectual nature instead of merely preaching the word and letting God take care of the rest. It reminds of people who justify many wacky methods of witnessing by saying that it brought people to the Lord. Nevermind that it might have doctrinal error. The ends justify the means. Instead of merely preaching the word, we appeal to the flesh.

    1 Corinthians 2:1-5
    </font>[/QUOTE]Believing which enables one to be saved is well within the God given abilities of man to do, and is in truth the only requirement placed upon man by God.

    Performing the actual salvation is quite another matter that is nowhere to be found in the realm of man's capabilities.

    For Both Calvinists and Armenians, Persuasion is the name of the game. Armenians believe that ALL have the ability to be persuaded, Calvinists believe that only "the elect" have the ability to be persuaded.

    Proselytizing is persuasion! We are all commanded to, "Go into all the world, make disciples (adherants, believers), baptising them in the name of the father, Son and Holy Spirit."
     
  19. pinoybaptist

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    Oh, yes, they are from the Bible's perspective.

    The elect are those whom God had foreknown,predestinated, called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:39-30). They are found in every nation, tongue, kindred, and people (Revelation 5:9), whose names were written in the Lamb's book of Life (Rev. 20:15). Some of them know each other as evidenced by the Pauline and the General epistles, many of them do not know each other.

    They, like the rest of fallen humankind, were fallen creatures, dead in sins and trespasses, and enemies of God (Romans 5:6-10), until God in His mercy quickened them (John 1:12-13;Ephesians 2:1,2; Titus 3:5) and made them new creatures (11 Cor. 5:17).

    God regenerated them in His own time and His own way, independent of Bible pounding, foot-stomping, pulpit smashing, finger-pointing preachers, Baptists or otherwise, so that when they heard the Gospel preached conversion came to them after the working of the Holy Spirit (John 3:16, 18; Acts 2:37-38;41) and having thus believed followed their Lord into the waters of Baptism that they may glorify Him in their midst (Eph. 3:20) and be taught the narrow way by those whom God had given to them as His gifts.
     
  20. Bugman

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    I agree. John MacArthur did a good job at showing how not understanding God's soverignty can "sometimes" lead to trying to grow the church yourself in his book Ashamed of The Gospel (Awesome book!)

    Bryan
    SDG
     

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