How does this doctrine effect the way we witness?

My personal opinion is that we must be sensitive to the Holy Spirit as though it is all God's work and leading. But we must share our faith with such zeal as though it all depends on us. We must have as our goal to persuade men to be saved. Isn't that the reason we deliver the news because we are convinced and persuaded of the life changing power of the gospel?

Acts 18:4, "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks."

Acts 28:23,24, "When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening. Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe."

2 Cor 5:11, "Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences."

I believe that if we love people we will have the boldness to share with people the greatest news there is. But it is up to the person to believe or refuse the message. Many will refuse, but that should not stop us from sharing the gretaest news there is about Jesus. It is not about church but about Jesus.

 

Oh, yes, they are from the Bible's perspective.

The elect are those whom God had foreknown,predestinated, called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:39-30). They are found in every nation, tongue, kindred, and people (Revelation 5:9), whose names were written in the Lamb's book of Life (Rev. 20:15). Some of them know each other as evidenced by the Pauline and the General epistles, many of them do not know each other.

They, like the rest of fallen humankind, were fallen creatures, dead in sins and trespasses, and enemies of God (Romans 5:6-10), until God in His mercy quickened them (John 1:12-13;Ephesians 2:1,2; Titus 3:5) and made them new creatures (11 Cor. 5:17).

God regenerated them in His own time and His own way, independent of Bible pounding, foot-stomping, pulpit smashing, finger-pointing preachers, Baptists or otherwise, so that when they heard the Gospel preached conversion came to them after the working of the Holy Spirit (John 3:16, 18; Acts 2:37-38;41) and having thus believed followed their Lord into the waters of Baptism that they may glorify Him in their midst (Eph. 3:20) and be taught the narrow way by those whom God had given to them as His gifts. </font>[/QUOTE]And what do you do with the fact that scriptures call the Jews "his own" and refers to the Jews as "God's elect"? Do you simply ignore that? Even the apostles refer to the Jews as the Elect of God. True I would also consider the Jews to be among the "whosoevers" if they too are believers in Jesus Christ, but the vast majority of them are not. Evenso, scripture declares that the Jews shall be saved, and that a remnant will survive the great tribulation. Thus one must conclude they are the Elect.

There is long history of how God dealt with the Jews; forcing them into exile, bringing them from exile; causing great famine for them and restoring them with bountiful harvests; scattering them throughout the nations and gathering them from the nations just for some clear examples of how God deals with His ELECT.

Even so, God gave them the choice in every case, because they were given the opportunity to repent and turn to God, JUST LIKE WE ALL ARE! But in every instance they refused until God had dealt harshly with them, brought them to their knees, until they were "purified" of their stubborness. In every case they had every opportunity and God gave them the right to repent and return to Him. JUST LIKE HE GIVES TO ALL MANKIND THROUGH BELIEF.

 

You would appear to be right with this except for one thing. You assume that this is speaking only of the physical Jew. What about the spiritual or inward Jew, of which all of God's children belong.

The Jews are His chosen people, and I can proudly claim that, though not by birth, God has made me a Jew.

Also, if it is up to the person to save himself, pray tell, just how can a dead man make himself alive?

Why does Paul tell us that God chose us in Him before the world began?

Why did Jesus say that of all the Father gave him, he would lose nothing?

The truth is, God chose us before the world, to be conformed to the image of His Son, not physically but spiritually here on earth, that we would be made regenerate and brought into the light out of darkness one day. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, and those that God loves haveto be in heaven. God can not be made a liar, and He says He loves us with an everlasting love.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God...except our rejection of Him? Wrong.

If the Father gave a person to His Son before the world began, then the blood of the Lamb has covered that person and he SHALL be eternally in heaven.(why we're called Hard-shall Baptists)

I am so thankful that it wasn't my choice to choose Him. If it was, I'd be just like Adam and go the other way toward fleshly desires, as would every other person on earth.

 

Are you speaking of the "Sammy Davis Jr. type of Jew? That is the convert to Judahism, or are you talking about the Christian believer?

I hope not, but if true, then you are the first on record. I find nowhere in scripture that God converts gentiles into Jews.

You assume that God created a bunch of corpses, and that simply is not true, because the dead do not hear the Word of God and believe. It is only the living who do that. The living who are not believers are the ones who hear and become believers, and in 1 Peter 1:22-25, Peter the Rock, says that we Hear the word first then become regenerated...Born Again!

That's a good question, why don't you do the research and tell us all why Paul would tell us that.

Because He too is God, and no one can take anything from God. But like a basket of fruit, the basket holds all the fruit, and so long as the fruit is good (has faith) the basket contains all the fruit. But if one piece of the fruit starts to spoil we take it out of the basket so that it wont cause the rest to spoil.

But Jesus told us that "God so loved the world", but then he went on and said that "whosoever believeth...." So I guess you do not understand God's Plan.

What else can separate us from God if not our own rejection? God said that Nothing can, but God told us he gives life and death, choose life, thus leaving it up to us. If we choose death by rejecting God, it is our choice.

You do not seem to recognize simple words such as "Jesus died to atone for the sins of the world" Therefore, His blood covers every person who has ever lived, is living and who will live, for they are all people of the world who sin.

But it remains your choice, because, at any time in your life, you have the potential of changing your belief, a power that is well within the realm of human possibility. So, if you haven't actively accepted Jesus as your personal savior, taking the active role in believing that Jesus is your savior and that He has promised you eternal life if you have faith in Him. Then you may not be saved. No I am not saying that you are not saved, but I am giving you a concept of belief that is scriptural. As long as we have faith in Jesus, He never leaves us nor forsakes us. But when we lose faith in Him he does not force himself upon us.

 

The Calvinist searches for those who are already saved, or the "elect." This does two things detrimental to good and proper evangelism.

1) It removes the impetus to Christians to honestly share their faith with the Lost. Since I cannot make a difference either way, why bother? Why irritate people by discussing topics with them they do not wish to hear?

2) It declares converts of those who do practice evangelism "open season" to the Calvinist who is content to act the part of a wolf to try and draw sheep from the fold where God has appointed them, rather than getting out and seeing God "regenerate" a few in his own fields. He does this by attempting to "show off" his religious prowess and convince others that his reasoning is superior to that of others. The Calvinist is historically demeaning, combative, and disrespectful to those that God uses to get the gospel out to the world.

While the Calvinist is publishing his tomes of theology, Non-Calvinists are content to print Bibles and distribute those, tracts with important passages of scripture, and simple explanations of the important truths of those Scriptures. Why? The Non-Cal has no need to twist the truths of scriptures, only to believe them sufficiently to practice them efficiently.

*hat tip &lt;/ )

 

How very true pappabear!

Glad to have you join the discussion

 

I am no Calvinist but I do believe in the Doctrine of Grace, and contrary to your earthly wisdom we do not twist the truths of Scriptures but rather proclaim them and study them according to the guidelines for studying which the Bible laid down:

With prayer; and comparing Scripture with Scripture in the light of the whole Bible, this phrase against that phrase, this principle against that principle.

Calvinists, any thoughts ?

 

I am no Calvinist but I do believe in the Doctrine of Grace, and contrary to your earthly wisdom we do not twist the truths of Scriptures but rather proclaim them and study them according to the guidelines for studying which the Bible laid down:

With prayer; and comparing Scripture with Scripture in the light of the whole Bible, this phrase against that phrase, this principle against that principle.

Calvinists, any thoughts ? [/QB][/QUOTE]

Thank You for the welcome above, Yelsew

Now, Pinoybaptist -- how is your post moot to the topic of how it affects witnessing? Was my post that convicting that you have to vary the topic to Calvinist Bible study for some reason?

Let's be a bit practical here -- when is the last time you saw a Calvinist handing out gospel tracts? What Bible printing missions do you know of that are Calvinist? Calvinism, like a cult, cannot abide the word of God without their explanation of it. And yes, I agree with you -- their method of Bible study is to grab a little from here, grab a little from there, then overwrite a line here with a line there. But what saith the scripture?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ever notice how those nasty Non-Calvinists have so many more converts from sin, while Cals have predominantly "converts" from so-called Arminianism? If the Calvinists are so right in preaching the gospel, then wouldn't it be the other way around and God bless them with more converts from sin than converts from 'Arminianism'?

You know, I love the context of John 5:24. Verse 25 even contradicts a prime Calvinist principle that all sinners are dead and cannot hear the gospel. But the BIBLE says, ...

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

And NOW IS? You mean the dead hear the voice of the Son of God, NOW? Why don't you try it sometime? It might amaze you if you were to give out the gospel more often than MacArthur's books or Piper's pamphlets, you might actually win a convert or two.

 

I am no Calvinist but I do believe in the Doctrine of Grace, and contrary to your earthly wisdom we do not twist the truths of Scriptures but rather proclaim them and study them according to the guidelines for studying which the Bible laid down:

With prayer; and comparing Scripture with Scripture in the light of the whole Bible, this phrase against that phrase, this principle against that principle.

Calvinists, any thoughts ? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Thank You for the welcome above, Yelsew

Now, Pinoybaptist -- how is your post moot to the topic of how it affects witnessing? Was my post that convicting that you have to vary the topic to Calvinist Bible study for some reason?

Let's be a bit practical here -- when is the last time you saw a Calvinist handing out gospel tracts? What Bible printing missions do you know of that are Calvinist? Calvinism, like a cult, cannot abide the word of God without their explanation of it. And yes, I agree with you -- their method of Bible study is to grab a little from here, grab a little from there, then overwrite a line here with a line there. But what saith the scripture?

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ever notice how those nasty Non-Calvinists have so many more converts from sin, while Cals have predominantly "converts" from so-called Arminianism? If the Calvinists are so right in preaching the gospel, then wouldn't it be the other way around and God bless them with more converts from sin than converts from 'Arminianism'?

You know, I love the context of John 5:24. Verse 25 even contradicts a prime Calvinist principle that all sinners are dead and cannot hear the gospel. But the BIBLE says, ...

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

And NOW IS? You mean the dead hear the voice of the Son of God, NOW? Why don't you try it sometime? It might amaze you if you were to give out the gospel more often than MacArthur's books or Piper's pamphlets, you might actually win a convert or two. [/QB][/QUOTE]

This forum is for brotherly discussion among Christians of all persuasions. If you're looking for a fight, instead of a discussion,I suggest you go elsewhere. Like maybe to piggeries ?

 

What ? Have I picked a fight with anybody here ? Have I baited anyone with my posts, like you do ? Are you now the high and mighty defender of whoever I picked on ? Who are you to barge in on Calvinists here and talk of how you and yours have "won souls" for the Lord ? Won souls ? Vanity, that's what that is.

Attack a Calvinist doctrine, if you will, and show why it is wrong, or you think it is wrong, that's what this board is all about. Learning what others believe, and why. Comparing what you believe with what others believe and changing your mind if your belief is proven erroneous.

This is not about preening one's feathers before others. Join a beauty contest if you want to do that.

 

I think pinoybaptist has already stated that he is not a Calvinist.

I do see why so many people get worked up over this debate forum. Arminians believe we have a duty to win souls for God to keep them from hell. Calvinists believe it is up to God to save from hell, but we should share the good news of our salvation.

It's no wonder one side thinks the other is evil, and vice versa. Just look how quickly a civil discussion turned into name-calling and accusations. Now I know why I lurk here more than I post.

Let's all try to be respectful of one another. after all, we are all brothers in Christ.

 

Doctrine doesn't play a major affect on the way I witness. I witness as directed by the Holy Spirit. Now, wat comes from my mouth may include doctrinal topics, but I don't witness unless the Holy SPirit directs me to. Usually, I don't realize I've witnessed to someone until afterwards, and it's often my actions that bear witness than the words comng frommy mouth. But if my words aren't one with my actions (and vice versa) then what good are they?

 

PappaBear:

For my Savior's sake I apologize for having reacted the way I did. I should have remembered that my Savior, who was innocent, was reviled, yet He reviled not.

Now, here is John 5:24-25

I see no reason why verse 25 should prove those who adhere to the Doctrines of Grace wrong.

The Lord could be referring to three facts:

A. That the spiritually dead whom He has desired back in eternity past to bring back to life will soon be hearing His voice and thus come alive which I do not think is inconsistent with verse 24 from the point of view of the Doctrine of Grace nor from the Arminian point of view.

We hold that "believeth" is not an active word in the sense that it is something that comes from hearing the Word proclaimed and thus results in everlasting life. Instead, one believes because God had already regenerated Him, such belief being proof of his everlasting life which excludes him from condemnation, and by which he has passed from death to life. The sinner believes on the Name of the Son of God because he has life. He is a regenerated soul with ears to hear and eyes to see.

On the other hand you, Arminians, hold that "believeth" is an active word which the hearer must perform, that he must believe on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ in order to have everlasting life.


B. He might be referring to physical resurrections which He will be performing (ex. Tabitha and Lazarus, and the little discussed opening of the graves and roaming around of many saints after His crucifixion) as further proofs of His ability to give life to whom He will since the Father hath given Him life in Himself.

C. Or he could be referring to that future time (future as far as time is concerned, 'NOW IS' as far as the Lord of Glory is concerned, who is beyond time) when both the dead in Christ and those of His alive at His coming, and the wicked dead, shall be resurrected, one to glory, one to eternal damnation.

Now, how does this affect my witnessing ? The fact that a Holy God, who creates simply by speaking, and is not obligated to forgive anyone among the fallen race of Adam, should choose to exercise His sovereign right to be merciful to some, puts my witnessing in its proper perspective.

That the glory, and honor, and praise belongs to God and to God alone, "who does what he will in the armies of heaven and of earth", and none to me, nor to any man, for we are but worms.

I witness for the sole purpose of glorifying God, not to "win" souls, for any soul that needs winning had already been won thru the blood of the Lamb.

I witness not to earn "stars" on my crown, for there are no crowns to speak of, had Jesus Christ not "set His face to go to Jerusalem." Little wonder that the four and twenty elders of Revelation cast their crowns at the feet of Him who sits in the throne of Heaven.

I witness because it is my Savior's will, and woe to the soul who claims mercy and sits idle, or woe to the soul who claims mercy and garners glory unto himself.

God be with you, PappaBear.

 

Pappa Bear, you are very unfamiliar with what you are talking about. Your post shows a great lack of knowledge about Calvinism and evangelism. Did you know that virtually all of the early church planting works in this country were Calvinists?? Did you know that virtually all of the early foreign missionaries were calvinistic??

The problem here is that you, like so many others, attack what you wish Calvinism was rather than what it is. Calvinists don't look for the elect. We preach the gospel to every creature and trust that God is working. We pass out tracts and invitations. We print Bibles and have mission boards and missions works.

It would do you well to study these issues before you get involved on this board. Unlike other boards, there are a great many knowledgeable people here who will take the time to pick apart your posts.

 

John 5:24 is a calvinist principle ... that dead hear. They are dead in their sins and they hear and come to life. That is what Calvinism teaches.

 

That's amazing, How is it that the dead and totally depraved hear the word of God and come to life? Do they not have to be quickened before they can hear?


Peter tells us in 1 Peter 1:22-25 That people hear the word, and believe, and are thereby "born again" or "quickened". But according to Calvinism all people are dead in sin and must be regenerated so that they can hear and believe.

How does the 1 Peter message set with Calvinism?

 

I think a distinction needs to be made here between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. Both are dead wrong (pardon the pun), but a distinction does exist.

 

I think that there's a much bigger focus on "lifestyle evangelism" in the Calvinist crowd. For example, instead of going to my neighbors and saying "here's what I believe, believe it or burn in hell" I get to know them and talk to them and present the gospel as fits the situation instead of walking up and slamming them over the head with it or sticking tracts on their doors.
Gina