How does your Bible translate here?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by gopchad, Nov 11, 2004.

  1. gopchad

    gopchad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    1
    2Ki 9:8 For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel:

    I am not trying to be crude, but the Hebrew here is
    שׁתן
    shâthan
    shaw-than'
    A primitive root; (causatively) to make water, that is, urinate: - piss.

    I have been using the NKJV some in my personal Bible study, and they translate this as "males" or as a phrase "sitteth against the wall". I can understand wanting to remove the word "pisseth" from the Bible, but why the seemingly incorrect translation of the word? Why not use the word urinate?

    Chad
     
  2. robycop3

    robycop3
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2000
    Messages:
    7,574
    Likes Received:
    10
    Obviously this could only refer to a male. In my younger days as a cop I saw more than one intoxicated female TRY to wash a wall, without success.

    If someone mentions to me about someone wetting a wall, I'd automatically know it was a male, but most likely one who was desperate, drunk, crazy, living in Paris, or any combination thereof.

    Almost every later Bible simply says "male".

    The KJV does the same thing...dynamic equivalency...in more than one passage.
     
  3. Logos1560

    Logos1560
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    2
    2 Kings 9:8 in the 1833 revision of the KJV
    by Noah Webster

    For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab the males, and him that is shut up and left in Israel.

    In his 1833 introduction to his edition of the Bible, Noah Webster commented: "To retain such offensive language, in the popular version, is, in my view, injudicious, if not unjustifiable; for it gives occasion to unbelievers and to persons of levity, to cast contempt upon the sacred oracles, or call in question their inspiration; and this weapon is used with no inconsiderable effect. Further, many words and phrases are so offensive, especially to females, as to create a reluctance in young persons to attend Bible classes and schools, in which they are required to read passages which cannot be repeated without a blush; and containing words which, on other occasions, a child could not utter without rebuke. The effect is, to divert the mind from the matter to the language of the scriptures, and thus, in a degree, frustrate the purpose of giving instruction.
    Purity of mind is a christian virtue that ought to be carefully cherished; and purity of language is one of the guards which protect this virtue"
    (p. xvi).
     
  4. Keith M

    Keith M
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,024
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Miles Coverdale Bible (1535), The Bishops' Bible (1568), and the Geneva Bible (1587) all use the phrase "maketh water" in this verse. If the translators of these earlier editions of the Holy Scriptures used this phrase, I wonder why the KJV translators chose to use the more vulgar terminology? Is there anyone who would call the use of "pisseth" a better rendering?
     
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    We are looking through modern glasses.

    Piss and a number of other 4-letter words from the "folk language" of the British Isles (most predating Anglo-Saxon and of Celtic origin) were in common use in the 16th Century. They were not "crude" or "vulgar".

    To try to show a distinction of class, many Latin or French words were introduced as a more "genteel" substitute for the basic English. Still today, we use euphemisms rather than use these perfectly good old 4-letter words.

    In this case "piss" = SYNECDOCHE, a rhetorical figure of speech where the "part represents the whole". The piss against a wall = male. Common. Remember Jacob lamenting that "my gray hair will go down to the grave". Wasn't just his HAIR he was talking about!

    Synecdoche. That's the word for today.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    2Ki 9:8 (Bishop's Bible):
    For the whole house of Ahab shalbe destroied:
    and I will cut off from Ahab, him that maketh water
    against the wall
    , as well him that is shut vp, as him
    that is left in Israel.

    I expect that if the KJV translators had
    special spiritual
    revelation in 1611 they would have
    known in the 18-21st century that the
    four letter "p" word would be vulgar.

    If the 1769 re-spellers of the KJV would have
    looked around they would have noticed that
    the "p" word was vulgar.
     
  7. natters

    natters
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not sure if 2 Kings 9:8 has the same issue of 2 Kings 18:27 and Isaiah 36:12 (which both also have "piss" in the KJV), where the KJV translators translated from the marginal note in the Masoretic text, rather than from the main text itself. This qere/kethiv pair (marginal note / main text pair) is an example of where for preservation purposes, the Hebrew scribes kept the "to be written" (the kethiv, the main text) in the main body of the text, but added the "to be read" (the qere, the marginal note), indicating that the main text in Hebrew is very vulgar, and when reading the scriptures aloud one should use the less vulgar marginal note.

    It is very interesting (and ironic) that the KJV translators choose to translate from the less vulgar reading (the marginal note), and chose a word that was not really vulgar in 1611, but ended up being the more vulgar word 350 years later.
     
  8. manchester

    manchester
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2004
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    0
    That are much worse verses than that one.

    Ezekiel 23:20

    There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. (NIV)

    She lusted after their paramours, whose flesh is like the flesh of donkeys and whose issue is like the issue of horses. (NASB)

    and lusted after their lovers, whose sexual members were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of stallions. (HCSB)

    For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. (KJV)

    It seems strange to react strongly to "pisseth," but think nothing of the other verses people today might find offensive.
     
  9. manchester

    manchester
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2004
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    0
    Maybe God wanted the "p" word BECAUSE it would be vulgar in modern English? Given the special revelation that the translators had, who are we to judge God?
     
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    And the purpose of this, Manchester, is?
     
  11. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    It has something to do with the fact He (God) obviously had some kind of special relationship with the KJV translators? :D :rolleyes:
     
  12. manchester

    manchester
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2004
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess that was off-topic. My point was simply that if you are going to get upset over the "p" word, there are a lot of other verses that should receive a dynamic translation as well. It seems very selective to me.
     
  13. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,176
    Likes Received:
    325
    I had a Hebrew professor who took great delight in showing the class how the KJV sanitized certain vulgarities in the Hebrew Bible.

    You don't want to know.

    HankD
     
  14. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    It has something to do with the fact He (God) obviously had some kind of special relationship with the KJV translators? :D :rolleyes: </font>[/QUOTE]You mean the pedobaptist Anglicans who translated the KJV?
     
  15. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    That's why it's called the Anglican Version!
     
  16. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,500
    Likes Received:
    20
    That's a new one! I have a large collection of Bibles, but I don't have one called the "Anglican Version." Does anyone know where I can buy one? Is it anything like the "Authorized Version"?

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    5,500
    Likes Received:
    20
    Fortunately, most people know better [​IMG] that to use those “perfectly good” old 4-letter words :eek: . (What are dirty old men doing on a Christian message board?) [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  18. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,176
    Likes Received:
    325
    It is the one with the frontispiece which says:
    "His majesty", being a one time titular head of the Church of England,
    AKA, the Anglo Catholic Church (as opposed to the Roman Catholic Church)
    with their own version of the sacramental rites of baptismal regeneration and the sacrifice of the mass.

    HankD
     
  19. Logos1560

    Logos1560
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    2
    I have a large collection of Bibles, but I don't have one called the "Anglican Version." Does anyone know where I can buy one?
    [/QUOTE]

    Since all the translators of the KJV were members of the Church of England, the KJV has
    been referred to as the "Anglican Version" or
    "Episcopal translation."

    For example, in 1828 Thomas Smith pointed out that Scottish reformer George Gillespie (1613-1648) "opposed the episcopal translation [referring to the KJV], and shewed the [Westminster] assembly, that the Greek word, by them [KJV translators' turned into 'ordination'
    [Acts 14:23], was in reality, 'choosing,' and imported the suffrages of the people in electing their own officebearers" (SELECT MEMOIRS OF THE LIVES, LABOURS, AND SUFFERINGS OF THOSE PIOUS AND LEARNED ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH DIVINES, p. 631).
     
  20. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    That's a new one! I have a large collection of Bibles, but I don't have one called the "Anglican Version." Does anyone know where I can buy one? Is it anything like the "Authorized Version"?

    [​IMG]


    Exactly. The Southern Baptists now have their own version called the Holman Christian Standard Bible which replaced the Disciples Study Bible. So why not change the name of the AV to Anglican Version?
     

Share This Page

Loading...