How effective is God's Grace?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jensen, Mar 22, 2007.

  1. Jensen

    Jensen
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    There are many who say things like "If you don't witness to them then they will go to hell." They say statements like these that seem to put the blame on the person doing the witnessing and not the "lost person".

    My question comes to this... If God has elected a group of people (lets call them group "X") before the foundation of the world, then will ALL of group "X" be in heaven (absolutely no matter what)? Or will some of group "X" not make it because of whatever the reason (i.e. they die at birth, they die before hearing the gospel, I dont tell them about Jesus, they reject the gospel, etc...)

    Now lets continue this questioning... lets say there is group "Y" who are a group of people that are a totally different subset from group "X" and were not elect from the foundation of the world. Will ANY of group "Y" make it to heaven? Or will ALL be in hell?

    I believe that that the Bible is clear that Jesus said ALL who the Father gives to me WILL come to me.

    Can any "X"s change into "Y"s? Or any "Y"s change into "X"s?

    Am I correct in saying this:
    "X" = sheep = wheat
    "Y" = goats = tares (weeds)
    and that no matter what we do "X" and "Y" are fixed and determined by God before the foundation of the world.
     
  2. skypair

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    Let me address the 2 issues you have here:

    1) The issue of "their blood on one's hands" is an Israel issue -- like "blood on his hands" was a "brother" issue with Cain -- it was spoken of Jews at various times and lastly aluded to be Christ when He sent out the 70 disciples to the people of Israel.

    The "great commission" would have us teach and baptize in the name of the Son, but so far as I know there is no "negative incentive" in the NT. Why? Cause God wants us to be led by the Spirit, not by the letter.

    2) You presume that, just because God foreknew who wouldn't believe, He also wouldn't allow them to believe and be saved. Salvation is NOT a "celestial lottery," Jensen, where there are "winning elect" tickets and "losing nonelect" tickets issued before man even existed and we don't find out which we hold until we die -- the "drawing."

    Anyone or everyone can choose to believe or not. Yes, God knows who those are who will believe and who won't. Yes, He has ordained everything that should happen in the course of time already -- He IS omniscient, after all.

    Letting us choose -- does that make Him NOT omnipotent? No, not if He chooses to relinquish the power of choice to man on the issue of personal salvation. Isn't that what the Bible tells us?

    skypair
     
  3. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    The problem I see with the question is that it seems to state that God predetermined Mr. Torculano (a fictional character, of course) to be born into the Y group, and Mr. Cortulano (another fictional character) to be born into the X group.

    It is not so.

    All of Adam's race get born into the Y group, at odds with their Creator because of their sin nature inherited from Adam. However, because of God's mercy, He did freely elect a definite number out of this fallen race unto salvation, and this election happened from before the foundation of the world, determined in Christ, whom the Bible says is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, having written their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, which writing down occured from before the foundation of the world.

    Those whom He did not elect, He left to the consequences of their sins, both in the timely sense, and the eternal sense, while those whom He did elect unto salvation He redeemed in Christ in due time.

    None of the X will ever drift into the Y because their election is not a matter of their choice, nor is it based on any of their deeds, nor is it a result of their theology, or knowledge of the fact of their election and salvation, nor is it based on anything else but God's mercy, and His will for their salvation.

    In the same way, the Y cannot ever drift into the X, for the simple fact that they have no Savior at all. They are totally and irrevocably responsible to God, and will account for their sins before God, because unlike the X group, no one took the penalty of their sins unto Himself as Christ did for the X group.

    In the words of Father Abraham to the rich man: there is a great gulf fixed between them, and may I add, there is no one to bridge that gulf for them.

    And that is true Grace.

    To be loved of the Father before you loved Him, to be known of the Father before you knew Him, and to be given a Savior when you deserved none.
     
    #3 pinoybaptist, Mar 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2007
  4. MB

    MB
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    If Christ died for the ungodly and the whole world is ungodly before Salvation. How is it you can say there are two groups even hypothetically? Are there men who are godly at the beginning of life? If so who, besides Christ.
    Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
    Is this unproven particular elect born without a sin nature?
    MB
     
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Short answer is no.
     
  6. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    You are being inconsistent with your words.
    Ordain in the Biblical sense does not mean "know in advance".
    That's what you want it to mean and very much need it to mean.
    Here's a sampler from Strong's:
    establish, settle, to put, place, institute, prescribe, designate, constitute, fix, prepare, set up, appoint, to give, to stand, to set in a row, to do or make.
    If you're going to say that God "ordained everything that should happen in the course of time already", then you need to be prepared to accept what that means.
    Kind of like in Proverbs 16:9 which you have yet to properly exegete
    No.
     
  7. webdog

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    I don't see anything inconsistent in skypair's post, nor do I see him claiming ordain to mean "know in advance".
     
  8. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    He is saying that God ordained all things, due to his omniscience.
    Translation= God's All-knowing abilities are what He uses to "ordain" all things.
    All-knowing=God knows all things, past, present and future.

    You can't say you believe that God "ordains" all things and then chalk it up to God's ability to be all-knowing.
    Ordain doesn't allow for that use.

    He's being inconsistent.
     
  9. webdog

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    I won't speak for skypair, but I'm guessing He believes God to be onmiscient, omnipresent, omnitemporal and omnipotent. God's ordaining falls into line perfect with Hic character.
     
  10. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Yes, and he said that God "ordains all thing" and he attributed that to God's all-knowingness.
    He can't have his cake and eat it too. (as the saying goes)
    Skypair wants to use the word "ordain" without using the meaning of "ordain" and that is simply won't work.
     
  11. webdog

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    I will wait for his response to what he meant, but God existing at all places and in all times at the same time would coincide with Him being all knowing.
     
  12. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    His all-knowing is not tied to His ordination of all things, according to what you collectively believe.
     
  13. webdog

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    What? How so?
     
  14. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    Sorry I should have been more clear.
    Skypair tied the concepts together, but he did so inconsistently, because he doesn't really believe that God "ordains" all things.
    God just knows them because He's all-knowing.

    If he never would have invoked the "ordains" part, I would never have commented.
     
  15. RichardJS

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    God will have his elect through the means he has already foreordained.

    All those God has predestinated to damnation will be punished eternally.
     
  16. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    This doesn't make sense either.
    If God "foreknows" that someone isn't going to be saved, then they're not going to be saved, period.
    God doesn't need to prevent anyone from being saved in order for His "foreknowing" to come true.
    Which is why the question of why doesn't God save everyone isn't answered by "free will"?
    Unless of course, you continue down the path of nonsense and say that God did not know the outcome of everyone's eternal destiny until He created them.
    Then you've just admitted that God really isn't all-knowing, which then leads you to Open Theism and a God who must be informed by man's choices.
     
  17. DQuixote

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    Finally. The utter confusion of the Reformed, Elect, limited atonement group in one paragraph. It can't be any plainer, and therefore any worse, than this. This is the very depth of heresy. Distort words, verses, take passages out of context, ignore the difference between the Kingdom promised to the Jews and eternal life for those who believe, and this is what you get.

    All my life I've heard that Southern Baptists interpret the scriptures more accurately than anyone else. With members like these, I realize that I have been lied to. Hence my personal preference to be non-denom, while attending an SBC fellowship, where the central message is that Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe, and in that context, any "I" can receive His call to eternal salvation. Any "I". Anyone. Behold! He stands at the door and knocks! His Grace, greater than all my sin, your sin, his sin, her sin, everyone's sin.

    :1_grouphug: <---- praying that these will read 1 Corinthians 2:1-16, submitting in all things to the "mind" (the spiritual insight, wisdom, and understanding) of Christ.
     
  18. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28
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    huh? what does that mean? Jews don't get eternal life?

    Just because it's in a hymn doesn't mean it's Biblically true.
    "Anyone"?
    What about those who God knows will never come?
    Does "He stand at the door and knock, knowing full well, that the proverbial door will never be opened"? (Way to wrench that verse out of it's original context, btw. Jesus is speaking to a church of professing Christians, yet somehow this is used to show what He says to the unbeliever. always amazes me.)
    If that's what you believe God does to those whom He already knows will never repent and have faith, then you have just showed God to be an illogical and unrational being who knowingly sets out to fail to convert those whom He knows will never repent.
    And yet, you despise what Calvinism does to God and His word.
    I despise that you prop up a God who tries His best to save those which He can't save.
     
  19. Jensen

    Jensen
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    So back to my opening question... If the elect ("X") are chosen before the foundation of the world. And those He foreknew...He predestined...He called...He justified...He glorified. Done deal right?

    So only "X" will get into heaven...only the elect. None of the non-elect or "Y".

    "X" cannot equal or become "Y" and "Y" cannot equal or become "X"
    "X" = sheep = wheat = good soil ... ALL will go to heaven and Jesus will lose none of them
    "Y" = goats = tares (weed) = path, stony ground & weed infested soil ... none will go to heaven ... Jesus says depart from me I NEVER knew you

    Is this correct?
     
  20. DQuixote

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    I rest my case. Even a simple paragraph, a sentence, is misinterpreted, and responded to in this ridiculous manner.

    To repeat:

    Allow me to break it down for you:

    The Kingdom promised to the Jews occurs at the beginning of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, for those Jews who survived the Tribulation. They will be saved in one day, at the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ. They will weep for the one they pierced.

    ANYONE, Jew or non-Jew, who receives Christ during the Trib goes instantly into the presence of God.

    Another group, authentic, born again Christians (including those Jews who receive Christ as Savior in their lifetime), will have already gone instantly to Christ. When? At the moment of death or the rapture, whichever comes first.

    I'm addressing those two categories. Additionally, a hymn can contain a central truth found in the Bible. How hard is that to understand?

    Obviously, eternal life is for all who believe. At the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, satan is loosed from his chains for a while, destroyed, cast into the lake of fire, along with his demon hordes. At that point eternal life is a given for all who believed. John 14:6. John 3:16-17. Romans 10:8-13. See how David phrases it in Psalm 86. Underline Psalm 86:11-12. Read it again. Pray it daily. Several times.

    :jesus: Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe. :godisgood:
     

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