How exactly am I a brother to Catholics?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Daniel David, Nov 7, 2003.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    I see different catholics referring to protestants and/or baptists as "brothers". Or they will refer to themselves as "brothers" of us.

    Now, I want to know why this is true. For example, I believe the following:

    - Justification is a forensic declaration whereby God imputes (not infuses) all of Christs righteousness immediately to the believing sinner.

    - Salvation is accomplished by Christ.

    - Praying to the "saints" is veiled idolatry.

    - The sacraments in the catholic church are an affront to the sufficiency of Christ.

    - The pope is "anti-christ" although not THE "anti-christ".

    - The catholic church is not only perverted in doctrine, but also in practice.

    - Every pope and mother Theresa are being tormented in hell.

    - The exhaltation of Mary is an indication that Catholicism is just the latest manifestation of Zaroastrianism.

    - That there is not a single person who is genuinely redeemed and also catholic.

    Do you catholics still consider me a "brother"?
     
  2. john6:63

    john6:63
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hold on Daniel, this is gonna be a bumpy ride.

    Remember though, the Baptists aren’t Protestants. The Protestants ‘protested’ hence the word, and broke from the Catholic Church. The Baptists were never apart of the Catholic Church.
     
  3. MikeS

    MikeS
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, of course. You are our very confused and belligerent brother in Christ, through baptism and the Truth of Christ you have received (in however distorted a form) from the True Church.

    Christians can run from the True Church, but they can't hide.
     
  4. dumbox1

    dumbox1
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Mike, you beat me to the punch!

    Daniel, certainly you're my brother. "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

    May God bless you richly, brother Daniel!

    Mark
     
  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    So a person can be part of the "true church" while rejecting everything it stands for?

    Let me be more specific, the catholic church is the largest gateway into hell. I absolutely reject the "catholic salvation" teachings in their entirety but this doesn't remove me from the "brotherhood"?
     
  6. Logan

    Logan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2000
    Messages:
    155
    Likes Received:
    0
    A distorted view of history, John6:63...how about showing us some Early Church Fathers who held distinctive "Baptist" beliefs? Or how about some who were writing against some distinctive "Catholic" beliefs, like the Eucharist?
     
  7. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,055
    Likes Received:
    36
    A reply from a protestor --

    Yes DanielDavid, Catholic Christians, as well as Baptist Christians, Methodist Christians etc., are my (and your) brothers and sisters (whether we like it or not).

    One quick question: are you saying that you really believe that St. Peter is being tormented in hell??
     
  8. MikeS

    MikeS
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you accept Christ you accept what the True Church stands for.
     
  9. dumbox1

    dumbox1
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Dear Brother Daniel,

    "Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts [Cf. 1 Cor. 11:18-19; Gal. 1:6-9; 1 Jn. 2:18-19], which the Apostle strongly condemned [Cf. 1 Cor. 1:11 sqq; 11:22]. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church -- for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church -- whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church -- do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."

    -- Unitatis Redintegratio 3

    In Christ,

    Mark
     
  10. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. The N.T. teaching is that the church is governed by elders, not just one.

    2. Peter wasn't ever a pope. He wasn't even the leader in Jerusalem when the church was primarily functioning from there.
     
  11. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Okay, here is a contradiction. I completely reject what catholicism stands for. So to you, I did not truly accept Christ. Correct?
     
  12. MikeS

    MikeS
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    0
    Okay, here is a contradiction. I completely reject what catholicism stands for. So to you, I did not truly accept Christ. Correct? </font>[/QUOTE]As a Christian you don't completely reject what Catholicism stands for. But to the extent that you do reject parts of Catholicism, to that extent you are rejecting the Church which Christ established, and to that extent you are therefore rejecting Christ.
     
  13. MikeS

    MikeS
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you completely reject this?

    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.

    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father.
    Through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
    in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.


    Didn't think so!
     
  14. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Daniel,

    You reject Protestant fabrications about the Church. Good for you! I reject them too.
     
  15. Daniel David

    Daniel David
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    5,316
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the intelligent discussion.
     
  16. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2002
    Messages:
    2,631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the intelligent discussion. </font>[/QUOTE]Most of the things that you potsed are not teachings of the Church or you clearly misunderstand them. You have fallen for lies and willful misrepresentations. You reject things that the Church also rejects.

    Now, if you want to be cynical, that's fine. I suppose that's your perogative.
     
  17. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2001
    Messages:
    1,958
    Likes Received:
    0
    Daniel --

    I think the question comes down to this: what is it that really makes a person a Christian? Is being a Christian a matter of having full and complete intellectual assent to every truth of the Christian faith? Or is it being born from above, by God's grace, into God's covenantal family and being His child?

    If the first, then there is a horrible problem involved with people who are "non compos mentos" right? I remember, when I was a Fundamentalist, of a young couple in our assembly who had a profoundly retarded child. The mother was absolutley beside herself trying to figure out how this child was going to get "saved" because the child was basically incapable of understanding even the rudimentary things of Christ. But this is the epistomological problem of those who hold to the idea that salvation comes from holding to each and every doctrine of Christ perfectly and with full understanding.

    Or is salvation by grace? Is it God's grace from beginning (the Cross) to end (glory in Heaven) for each individual. That is what the Catholic Church teaches. We do not "choose" God, he chooses us. The idea that we contribute anything to the equation other than our sin is the heresy of Pelegianism which the Church condemend some 1500 years ago.

    God established a covenant family with Adam and Eve. When sin entered the world and separted all mankind from Him, (Rom. 5:12) He did not give up on the human race, but rather promised the coming of the One Who would redeem mankind. Christ, by his passion and death, has defeated death and establised the New Covenant of which HE is the "Last Adam" (1 Corin. 15:45). But as with the OLD Covenant, there is a means by which you must get into the covenantal family. In the Old Covenant, that means was circumcision. Note that a child did not have to perfectly know all about God to be a member of the covenantal family. Knowledge is not necessary. In fact, perfect knowledge was not necessary, as there were people in Judiasm who had some rather strange ideas about God (Job's three "miserable comforters come to mind).

    In the New Covenant, since it is a covenant, there still must be a rite by which one is entered into the covenant. That rite is now baptism, and like the infant of the Old Covenant, the infant of the New Covenant, or the adult convert to Christianity, does not have to KNOW every detail about God and keep those things perfectly.

    It is about being children of God, not scholars of Heaven.

    That you disagree with Catholic teachings is understandable. But baptism does what it does, regardless of what a person thinks or knows -- it makes one a member of the kingdom of God, the covenantal family of God, and an adopted child of the King by grace. Your lack of understanding of Catholicism cannot make you any less of His child. Even your antagonism to the Church cannot make you less of His child by grace. The only thing that can separate you from God for all eternity now is sin -- and it is not a sin to be confused and misled about the Catholic Faith.

    Cordially in Christ,

    Brother Ed
     
  18. john6:63

    john6:63
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    886
    Likes Received:
    0
    So what about the thief on the cross, who simply called upon the name of the Lord?
     
  19. MikeS

    MikeS
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    873
    Likes Received:
    0
    So what about the thief on the cross, who simply called upon the name of the Lord? </font>[/QUOTE]Baptism of Desire.

    CCC 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."[62] Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
     
  20. Johnv

    Johnv
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    All those who have accepted Christ as savior are brothers and sisters, whether anyone likes it or not.
     

Share This Page

Loading...