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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by DaChaser1, Jan 25, 2012.
per those who hold that current calvinism is "no good!"
From what I have read about Calvin and his teachings, the modern "calvinist" has perverted and exaggerated what Calvin taught in order to elevate, in his own mind, his standing in the Kingdom.
But let me tell you a secret......there will be many of us regular Christians in heaven too.
I hope that doesn't upset you Calvinsts too much.
NOT at all, as what is ironic is that both cals and Non cals get saved same way by God, its just one of us realise it!
Sheesh, talking about begging the question...
At least first learn what Calvin actually taught and how that teaching came down through ages of church life from the Scriptures, and how it is yet preserved today.
Then we can start talking about some of the negative connotations about CalvinISM.
that is why said OP the way was addressed , as it seems that some of our non cal/arm bethren seem to think that we are all "messed up" by calvin and that theology!
*ahem*....praytell, which one of us doesn't realize it? Please enlighten us ignorant folk.
Calvinism is not about what Calvin taught. Luther was a Calvinist, and he preceded Calvin. So did Augustine and Paul. Calvinism is the Gospel.
Well, I think the idea is that you believe that your salvation is ultimately up to you.
God made it available to everybody and the ones who get it are the ones who choose it. The ones who don't get it don't choose it.
The choice is not ultimately God's but yours.
Your salvation rests in your own hands.
That means God is the one who makes it available but you are the one who determines whether or not you will be saved.
Your salvation is up to you- not God.
On WHAT basis does God chose to base his divine Election to us, on order for us to become the children of God, found now to be in Jesus?
was it based upon His sovereign Will and purposes, no other?
was it based upon God forseeing that we would make the correct choice and choose Christ to save us?
was it based upon our choosing toaccept christ that caused the election by God, or does His election cause us to receive jesus by faith?
I completely disagree. Calvinism is not the gospel The gospel stands alone and is the doctrine of Christ. It doesn't belong to anyother doctrine. It is it's self the true doctrine.
calvinism is NOT the Gospel, its a system that attempts to explain and understand the Gospel...
Would say its the best as reards to explaining Sotierology, not so much for eschatology!
Here's what head of the Calvinist 'Founders' faction Tom Ascol admitted to the Florida Baptist Witness:
For the life of me, I cannot understand where this "pride" issue and Calvinism comes into play all the time.
We are saved by grace, through faith, and that not of ourselves...
We of all people should be humbled to realize that unless God moves we are doomed. And, did Paul not say that very clearly as well? It is all about
:jesus: :jesus: :jesus: :jesus:
I am curious why you call Founders a faction?
a group within a larger group, esp. one with slightly different ideas than the main group
I also find it ironic that Calvinism is equated in any way with pride. I think a reason is that some who wear the label Calvinist or reformed have a pretty high opinion of their own intellect and can be condescending to those who disagree. I have known some who fit this description and I am not drawing from any examples from this message board community.
As you say, of all Christians, Calvinists should be among the most humble and with regard to their salvation I would assume they are, even if how they interact with others is not always so humble.
Think what causes the "friction" in this area is the concept of Gods Election...
Some here see that as us somehow stating we are 'better' than others, as God chose us, and its "not fair" that He chose me and not you!
they question why God works the way that he does in salvation!
What group are they within? They are an independent group that enjoys members from several denominations and no denominations. I see a faction as being within another organization.
Secondly, what ideas do they have that are different from the group that they are within?
Agree... It is interesting that those holding to Calvinism are seen as "educated" by others who do not. That may or may not be true and it would take a lot of testing of individual Calvinists to determine, eh?
A corollary to this topic is that somehow "education" (in this context, especially "seminary education") is seen as somehow bad, evil, wrong, or leading one to false conclusions in doctrine over those who prefer "me and Jesus."
Yet, in the end, who writes the books that teach the teachers that insstruct the pupils so that the faith once given for the saints continues in an orthodox and not heterodox direction? Hard work, TONS of reading, Bible study at a high level in the original languages, all caused by much midnight candle burning are involved in the pursuit of seminary-type education, not a matter of "pride" but rather of hard work that pays dividends in that GOD HIMSELF calls us to be "workmen rightly dividing the word of truth..."
From their website: