How "good" is "good enough"?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Dr. Walter, Jan 11, 2011.

  1. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    Mt.5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    1. The object of this statement: Entrance into the kingdom of Heaven
    2. The standard for entrance: Righteousness that exceeds that of the most devout religious Jews.

    My Questions:

    1. How good is good enough to ENTER Heaven?

    2. What determines "good enough" righteousness to ENTER heaven?

    3. Does God have a DUAL standard for "good" enough to ENTER heaven?
     
  2. Amy.G

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    1. Jesus
    2. Jesus
    3. No. Jesus is the standard


    I can never be good enough to enter God's presence, but Jesus' blood has washed away my sins, therefore He stands in my place and is forever my advocate and Savior.
     
  3. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter
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    That is the essence of "good news" or the gospel.
     
  4. mets65

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    Those that he speaks of rejected Jesus as the messiah.
     
  5. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
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    Dr Walter

    Those passages of scripture have no relavence whatsoever regarding our recieving the gift of eternal life, and making heaven our eternal home.

    We are justified in Gods sight by faith in Christ alone.

    Passages such as the ones you posted serve to drive the pharisees and any and all other...like you and me...self rightious ones to see their hoplessness of EVER being HOLY enough to merit, or earn their way into heaven.

    People have to come to the end ot their self rightiousness...so that they will turn to Gods mercy...found in Christ.

    AiC
     
  6. Dr. Walter

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    Those he speaks OF rejected him but those He speaks TO ["your"] are the ones receiving this instruction.
     
  7. Dr. Walter

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    These passages are perfectly relevant to us. Indeed, you cannot even appreciate justification by faith without works or the truth of the gospel until you understand what Jesus is demanding here.
     
  8. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ
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    Dr Walter...

    Of course, but not in the sense of trying to do what they command so that we can be saved.

    Thats what I meant in my 1st post.

    AiC
     
  9. Dr. Walter

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    That is my point in using them and asking these questions because there are many on this forum that think they can be justified by their works with a little help from God.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    The lost must come in repentance to Christ and be forgiven - born again.

    The SAVED (the good tree of Matt 7 with good fruit) must "persevere in doing good" to REMAIN in that condition.

    Hence the warning to the SAVED in Romans 11 "you stand only by our faith -- you should FEAR".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Dr. Walter

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    Just answer the questions bob!

     
  12. billwald

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    >The lost must come in repentance to Christ and be forgiven - born again.

    5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

    In other words, "being born again" is initiated and completed by the Holy Spirit.

    Professional <pun intended> Christians don't like this because they can't pay the bills by proclaiming "You all are regenerated by God even if you don't know it."
     
  13. BobRyan

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    In John 16 - the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

    In John 12:32 God "Draws all mankind unto himself" via the Holy Spirit.

    However the process invovles the free will of man choosing to respond to that first-action of God.

    Rev 3 "Behold I stand at the door and knock if anyone hears my voice AND opens the door I WILL come in".

    John 1 - "He came to His own - but His own received him not. But to as many as received Him to THEM he gave the right to be called the sons of God".

    It is the whosoever will function of the Gospel being made available to the whole world because "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world". 1John 2:2.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    As I keep pointing out - the lost do not "persevere in being lost" until they are saved. There is no "perseverance of the lost" that results in salvation.

    The lost come to Christ in repentance and confession accepting the Gospel of salvation.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Dr. Walter

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    You are simply afraid to directly answer the questions and I don't blame you because your intepretation will fall apart if you dare to.
     
  16. Dr. Walter

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    Those who believe in living above sin and those who believe in justification for entance into heaven by works have one thing in common. They both reinterpret the Law of God to a LOWER standard of righteousness than the "righteousness of God" or the "glory of God."

    If they accepted that the Law's standard is "the righteousness of God" or "God's righteousness" then they would give up on the idea that a Child of God could live above sin or that entrance into heaven by a child of God could be justified by his works.

    Those who understand the scriptures realize that God does not have TWO standards for righteousness but only one standard that harmonizes with James definition in James 2:10 and with Paul's definitions in Galatians 3:10-11 and Romans 2:7, 12-14 and with the standard Jesus gives in Matthew 5:20 with verse 48.

    Those who understand the scriptures realize that the works of the child of God have nothing whatsoever to do with entrance into heaven (Mt. 5:19; 1 Cor. 3;11-15; etc.) but only with the gain or loss of eternal rewards and position in heaven and the gain or loss of present experiential eternal life (peace, joy, growth, usefulness, assurance, etc.) on earth. Present salvation tense is all about redeeming or losing time (Eph. 5:16) whether it is wasted and lost for eternity or made to count for Christ and eternity.

    The single most misunderstanding among professed Christendom in regard to soteriology is the role that "death" plays in the life of the believer. Most do not understand or perceive that the child of God can "put on" the new man and "put off" the old man at will and when that happens the child of God is EXPERIENCING either life or death and the true child of God experiences "death" on a DAILY BASIS. Jesus told his disciples to take up their cross and follow him. In order to avoid the EXPERIENCE of death while one is physically living and while one is spiritually regenerate in the inward man, they must learn to PUT TO DEATH the deeds of the body and this is a off and on struggle throughout the Christian life.

    The justified by works type of Christianity have no concept of what I am talking about or what Paul meant when speaking to Christians to "put on" and "put off" in their daily lives.
     
  17. Doubting Thomas

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    The Apostle Paul would disagree...

    "5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who 'will render to each one according to his deeds': 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
    (Romans 2:5-10)

    Notice Paul states that God will render eternal life to those who do good. Notice too that this will be done in the day of judgment. Notice Paul does NOT say that God will simply render rewards or a higher heavenly position or present day peace, joy, or assurance to those who do good, while the self-seeking and disobedient, while still being rendered eternal life, don't get those extra things.


    And so would the Apostle Peter...

    " 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11)

    Notice that Peter does NOT state one should "do these things" in order to get rewards in heaven or a higher heavenly position or simply to get present day peace, joy and assurance (though making sure of our election is certainly in view here), but rather to have "an entrance..into the everlasting Kingdom of Christ".


    And so would Bishop James, our Lord's Brother...

    "14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith SAVE him?
    "17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    "20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
    "26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:14,17,20-24,26)

    Notice James doesn't teach that faith minus works is dead and profitless for the purpose of gaining rewards in heaven or for having peace, joy, and assurance here on earth, but rather faith without works cannot SAVE a person. Such 'faith' would be a simple 'bare intellectual assent' to the truth of the Gospel, rather than the "faith which works through love" which actually "avails anything" "in Christ Jesus" (Gal 5:6).


    And so would our Lord Jesus Christ...

    28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29)

    Notice Christ doesn't say that those who have done good will simply get heavenly rewards and present day peace/joy/assurance, and that converserly those who don't do good will just not get these extra nice things, but will get to enter heaven anyway. Rather, Christ states those who have DONE GOOD will partake in the resurrection of LIFE and those who have DONE EVIL to CONDEMNATION.

    In light of this clear scriptural teaching, perhaps you should rethink your statement that: "Those who understand the scriptures realize that the works of the child of God have nothing whatsoever to do with entrance into heaven".

    DT
     
    #17 Doubting Thomas, Jan 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2011
  18. Alive in Christ

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    I went right PAST your questions and made a statement.

    Here goes...

    Sinless perfection. As perfect as Jesus Christ.

    God has made that determination. Sinless perfection.

    No.

    We have no hope other than being found to be "In Christ". Being "in Christ" means that Christs pefect rightiousness has been imputed to us...therefore we meet Gods standard...because we are "in" Christ...who is perfectly rightious.

    PRAISE...THE...LORD!!!
     
  19. mets65

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    What do you think about people that have been baptized and publicly confessed they've accepted Christ as their savior but their life reflects none of that. They aren't "living for Christ"
     
  20. Alive in Christ

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    They are still children of God.

    Here' a news flash...

    NONE of us have lived up to Gods standard perfectly.

    The scripture informs us...

    But the good news is that we have recieved "imputed" rightiousness, a rightiousness that comes not from us, but it is given as a gift...

    Good news, isnt it? :love2:

    In time those folks will see that they are not living in the goodness of ressurection life, and will come to their senses and get with the program regarding their walk.

    Or...God will do that for them...but its usually a lot more pleasant if we come to our senses, rathen experience Gods chastisement
     
    #20 Alive in Christ, Jan 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2011

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