How "good" is "good enough"?

Your are abusing verse 5. The person described in verse 5 is the same person described in verses 1-4 which is a NON-BELIEVER who thinks they will escape judgement (v. 3) because they believe their works will vindicate them above others. The pronoun "thee" in verse 4 grammatically refers to the same person in verses 1-3. You simply are abusing verses 1-5.

Verse 6 defines the basis upon which the person in verses 1-5 believes they will escape the judgment of God - THEIR OWN WORKS - not the imputed rightousness of Jesus Christ, not justification by faith, but JUSTIFICATION BY WORKS UNDER THE LAW (vv. 11-15). Verses 6-10 simply provides the JUST basis and JUST consequences that WORKS will receive UNDER LAW!

You don't recognize this not because the developmental context does not clearly demand it but because it conflicts with your predisposed eisgetical based soteriology.

ABsolutely! He is talking about self-righteous lost men who wish to obtain eternal life by DOING GOOD WORKS (v. 6) and simply sets forth the criteria for what teh Law requires TO DO GOOD ENOUGH to obatin that goal - "PERSERVING CONTINUALLY IN DOING WELL" just as Paul treats it negatively in Galatians 3:10 in these words:

"Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

What you should be saying is that this is a context of justification by"WORKS" (v. 6) only UNDER LAW (vv. 12-13) and not justification by faith in Christ and therefore has absolutely no application to those justified by faith in Christ. However, you are simply PERVERTING this text to suit your own ill concieved false doctrine.

The issue is assurance and "ABUNDANT" entrance not in order to enter! Notice how you conveniently omit the word "abundant" in order to sustain your false interpetation of this text.

Notice how you pick and choose what you want James to say! James introduces this in the context of the Human Court of Observation and thus justification before men not justification before God - Note his words "shew ME.....shew YOU." Each example was BEFORE MEN (Abraham before Isaac and servant; Rahab before spies and all Israel).

Another example of JERKING a text out of context! Why not start with verse 24 my friend??????? Why not start with the words "SHALL NOT COME into condemnation" due to IMPUTED RIGHEOUSNESS and thus GOOD by definition of God's Law due to IMPUTED RIGHTEUSNESS. Why not note the REGENERATIVE RIGHTEOUSNESS of those raised from the Spiritual dead. In contrast the lost man has NO RIGHTEOUSNESS - not imputed, not regenerative, nothing good in God's sight!!!!!!


You are simply gifted in PERVERTING the scriptuers and JERKING texts out of context to suit your own desires.

 

There is no circling back because there is no such doctrine of "perseverance of the saints" ACCORDING TO HOW YOU DEFINE IT! The elect cannot be justified or sanctified by the works of the law. Paul tells the Colossians to "walk even as you received" and that was by faith. Romans 7:14-25 is the experience of the saved who attempt to be sanctified by the works of the law whereas Romans 7:6-13 is the attempt of the lost to be justified by the works of the law.

There are not TWO standards of righteousness. One standard whereby lost are justified by faith without works (Rom. 3:5-6) and another standard whereby saved are justified with works. NO FLESH is justified by the works of the law whether lost or saved, Jew or Gentile.

 

John 14:15 is directed toward those Jesus already promised would be taken to heaven (Jn. 14:1-5) already in a saved condition. "IF you love me" defines the proper motivation for SAVED people to serve God because they have been saved not in order to become saved. Romans 2:7 has nothing to do with saved people but with lost people who come before God to be justified under law by their works.

Jerked out of context. The previous verse (v. 21) introduces PHYSICAL DEATH. The followiing verse (23) gives direction to avoid PHYSICAL DEATH. This is the context of PHYSICAL PERSECUTION and how to avoid PHYSICAL DEATH during the latter days. If one follows his directions he will PHYSICALLY persevere until the end.

Here is the aspect of salvation that you simply are completely ignorant about. This is the present tense aspect of salvation that has to do with "REDEEMING THE TIME" (Eph. 5:16). How to save your "life." The Christian can "put off the old man" and can "put on" the new man. Whatever "time" is dominated by one or the other is either redeemed/saved or lost. As a child of God walks "after" the Spirit (Eph. 5:17-18) he redeems his time, his daily life but whatever time he walks "after" the flesh he loses his time and wastes his life and loses eternal dividends. This has nothing to do with entrance into heaven but with the salvation of his life here and now and the consquences of sowing after the flesh or Spirit here and now with eternal consequences in regard to rewards in heaven (1 Cor. 3:11-15). It has to do with the building your house (life) not the foundation upon which the house is being built. However, the person who believes in justification by works is building his house upon the foundation of "sand" no matter how beautiful his house may be it will collapse in the day of judgement.

All the above texts have to do with profession versus possession and Hebrews 4:2 is the text given to explain this. Paul is merely warning those professors that not all who profess are saved as those who fell in the wilderness (Heb. 3) did so because the gospel was not "MIXED IN THEM WITH FAITH" (Heb. 4:2) and therefore they had an "EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF" (Heb. 3:12). True Christians are not among those who "draw back to perdition" but who continue in their profession of faith and it is manifest by their works.

Two gospels were preached among the Corinthians. One was the gospel of Paul which saves and the other was a "vain" gospel that provided no salvation (vv. 10-19). Some of his readers had embraced the vain gospel and some were contending for the gospel of Paul. This is why Paul is responding here. Paul is challenging the genuiness of their original profession of faith as he uses the Aorist tense "believed." False professors will hear and follow another shepherd but true believers do not (Jn. 10:26-28).

Who were "cut off"? Individual saved Jews or the unbelieving nation of Israel? The unbelieving nation of Israel was cut off! Hence, being cut off has nothing to do with the saved "remnant" but with unbelieving nations. Previously God had PRIMARILY called out his people from among Israel as a nation. Now they were "cut off" as a nation for rejecting their messiah. He turns now to the Gentile nations to all out a people ("remnant") among them and if they also as a PEOPLE reject the gospel he will turn back to the nation of Israel as a PEOPLE and call out from among them a people for his name. Hence, cutting off or grafting in has nothing to do with individual salvaiton or loss of individual salvaiton but rather the privilege of God's PRIMARY work of redemption to call out a people from AMONG THEM. When the Gentiles as a WHOLE or a PEOPLE reject the gospel, God will "graft in" AGAIN the Nation of Israel as a People.

It is again a question of GENIUNE salvation evidence by continuance in the faith manifested by works rather than apostasy from the faith which manifests false profession (1 Jn. 2:19).

Paul has moved on beyond the discussion of justification by works or by faith and beginning with Galatians 5:16 to the end of the book is dealing with the Christian life. There is a present tense sowing and reaping NOW whereby a christian is PRESENTLY either experiencing LIFE or DEATH according to what he is sowing. This is not about entrance into heaven in the future but about ETERNAL LIFE right now
being part of the Christian EXPERIENCE or DEATH right now being part of the Christian experience. As the Christian PUTS ON the new man his PRESENT EXPERIENCE is eternal life (fruit of the the Spirit, blessings, usefulness, etc.) but whenever he is walking "after" the flesh his PRESENT EXPERIENCE reaps death manifest in his PRESENT LIFE (the fruits of the flesh). His PRESENT EXPERIENCE is being saved or lost, his PRESENT TIME is being redeemed or lost.

Eschatalogical context - Enduring through PHYSICAL challenges so that one perseveres PHYSICALLY until Christ returns.

 

Paul says "AS you received the Lord Jesus Christ" (and you agree that is justification by grace through faith) "SO walk ye in him" (Hence, there is no circling back but you walk as you received (Col. 2:6).

 

Already answered each one:

http://www.baptistboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1634915

 

No you don't! You prefer your interpretation of them which superficial only as they are jerked out of context.

 

Yes, I still accept these texts as they read in context and still reject your eisgetical jerked out of context misinterpretation of these texts.

 

Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul defines the SDA soteriology in this passage. SDA teaches that one begins the Christian life by "the hearing of faith" or justification faith but continues the Christian life "by the works of the law" or "made perfect by the flesh."

According to SDA soteriology a person enters into salvation one way but continues in salvataion another way.

However, Paul's position was "AS ye have received Jesus Christ SO WALK ye in him" - Col. 2:6.

When we point out this error in SDA soteriology Bob accuses us of circling back, thus an open admission that he believes one enters the Chrstian life through justification by faith but continues through justification by works. He defines the continuance aspect of justification by works as "perserverance of the saints." Galatians is written to condemn this very error of initial justification by faith but continuance by justificaiton through works.

 

Let us place this text back into its context like thus:

21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Your point for quoting this text is to support the idea that perseverance in good works is what saves a professed believer in the end.

However, the verses both before and after place this in the framework of the end time when the consquences of identifying with Christ may invoke persecution unto physical death.

Note the verse that follows your chosen text! He instructs them to "FLEE" when persecution begins in a city? The instruction to "FLEE" only preserves PHYSICAL life as no such instruction is necessary to preserve SPIRITUAL life. Hence, what is in view here is how to preserve their PHYSICAL lives in such circumstances. If you follow his instructions you PRESERVE YOUR OWN PHYSICAL LIFE until the end but if you do not follow these instructions it is PHYSICAL DEATH that both precedes (v. 21) and follows (v. 23) this text. Hence, to read into verse 22 conditions to preserve SPIRITUAL life is reading into this text what the context both before and after does not suggest or imply.

 

Again, you have taken a select portions of Scripture found in Hebrews 2-3 and drawn the conclusion that these texts demand perseverance in good works in order to be finally justified for eternal life.

However, the writer of Hebrews draws a different conclusion to those He has been talking about in such a way in Hebrews 2-3. When he comes to application in Hebrews 4:1-2 he plainly states that those who apostatized in Heberws 3 were not really saved to begin with because their initial profession was not "mixed with faith IN THEM"

Heb. 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

However, your whole argument not only infers but demands that those Paul were describing were true beleivers and did initially make a true confession of faith.

However, even previous to this conclusive "therefore" in Hebrew 4:1 he has clearly stated they were really false professors who really never believed:


Heb. 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Heb. 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Their departure from the living God was in profession only as they never had faith mixed with the gospel IN THEM!

Heb. 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Paul is not talking about true believers in heart but about PROFESSED BELIEVERS in mouth who NEVER known his ways, ALWAYS err in their heart because the word was NEVER mixed with faith in their heart. You present them has having know the ways of God but Paul says they "have not known my ways." You present them as true believers that apostatized but Paul says they ALWAY err in heart and NEVER had faith mixed with the gospel word in their heart (Heb. 4:2). Therefore, this writer is exposing FALSE PROFESSION rather than warning about true believers going into apostasy (1 Jn. 2:19).

Just as you jerked Matthew 10:22 out of its context and perverted it, you have jerked these texts out of the overall context and the specific and explicit drawn conclusions repeatedly stated.

 

Time to be honest Bob! You have not only been quoting these texts you have previously given your take on them as well!

Any heretic can jerk a text out of context and use it for a pretext to teach anything they like. What you call my "spin" is simply placing the text back into its context and allowing the context to define it.

I noticed you could not respond to the contextual definitions but simply chose to isolate the text once again from its context. Everybody has got your number Bob, you don't care what the Bible actually teaches in context but you a proof texter who simply uses the Bible for you own agenda.

 

The evidence speaks for itself and I have placed it in your face over and over again.

1. You cannot find any Christian in verses 1-5 and the pronouns prove it.
2. You cannot deny that Romans 2:6 is strictly a "according to works" assessment UNDER LAW as Romans 2:11-14 make that clear.
3. You cannot find any common designators used elsewhere by Paul for saints, saved, justified by faith, justified by grace, elect, etc. in Romans 2:1-29.
4. If you apply Romans 2:14-15 to regenerate gentiles you completely destroy any contextual identifiable standard for God to judge gentiles "according to his works"
5. If you apply the term "gospel" in verse16 as evidence of saved persons present you are ignoring that Paul has mentioned it not for salvation but for a standard of JUDGEMENT.
6. The pronouns in Romans 2:17-24 deny any possible application to saved persons
7. The argument in Romans 2:25-29 is based squarely on the Biblical definition of what the Law requires to "fulfill" it "according to his works" and in particular to the work of circumcision, which no Jew or Gentile is capable of doing.
8. You ignore that Romans 3:1 presumes that a PAST argument has been made that circumcision is of no avail in addition to FUTURE arguments that restrict the benefit of being a Jew and circumcision to something other than salvation.