How is this change/revision in the KJV better?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Logos1560, May 20, 2009.

  1. Logos1560

    Logos1560
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    2
    At Leviticus 6:2, there are interesting differences between the pre-1611 English Bibles of which the KJV was a revision and the KJV.

    Some Hebrew words were translated as following in them:

    "that was put under his hand" (Tyndale's)
    "that was put under his hands" (1535 Coverdale's Bible)
    "that was put into his hands" (1540 edition of Great Bible)
    "that which was put to him of trust" (1560 Geneva Bible)
    "that was put into his hands" (1568 Bishops' Bible)
    "in fellowship" (1611 KJV)


    Leviticus 6:2 in the 1560 Geneva Bible
    "If any sin and commit a trespass against the Lord, and deny unto his neighbour that, which was taken him to keep, or that which was put to him of trust, or doeth by robbery, or by violence oppress his neighbour."

    Leviticus 6:2 in the KJV
    "If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour"

    How is the change/revision introduced in the 1611 KJV clearer, better, or more accurate than the renderings in the pre-1611 English Bibles?
     
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is one of the cases where KJV departed from its principle; Word-to-Word translation which happened in OT at times.
    Hebrew is more difficult to keep the principle than Greek though.
     
  3. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    There is no such thing as a word for word translation from one language to another. Ask any Spanish speaker to translate ¿Cómo está? and ¿Cómo estás? A word for word translation will not give an accurate translation.
     
  4. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    No. In Bible translation, if we follow the Dynamic Equivalence there will be hundreds of novels for the same sentence. Even if there may be some problems with Word-to-Word principle( you may call it Formal Equivalence), still it is the best way to avoid or minimize the intervention of the human thoughts.

    Let me show you a little more serious case.

    I think this applies to many other versions too.

    Exodus 8:23

    And I will put a division between my people and thy people.......

    Here " division" is the translation from " Pedoot" which means "Redemption" or "Ransom"

    But most of the translations have " division" or "difference"

    God put the Redemption between Israelites and Egyptians.

    God has put the Redemption between Believers and Unbelievers.

    The Redeemer protects the Believers believing His Redemption, while He punishes the Unbelievers. Here we can see the shadow of Jesus Christ. We can imagine how much Jesus explained about Himself shown in Torah-Neviim-Ketuviim when He expounded the Bible to the disciples ( Luke 24:44).

    If we translate the Original Bible in the best way of Word-to-Word, it is very useful. But in that case, we may often need some footnotes or commentary. Bible Translation is not the commentary or interpretation, both of which belong to next stage and to the commentators.

    Try to meditate on Exodus 8:23, which I think is more interesting because it is related to the spiritual meaning.
     
  5. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    There is not one Bible around that is translated using a word for word translation. Even the KJV is not a word for word translation.

    I asked you about the two Spanish questions and apparently you still do not understand my point and worte it off as simplistic. I purposely made it easy so you would esasily understand. Both of those in a word for word translation are "How are you?" But they convey a completely different meaning in context.

    What do you do with the Greek words which are not translatable?
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    In what English translation do you find the phrase "woman of him" instead of wife?
     
  7. Logos1560

    Logos1560
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    2



    All translation by uninspired men involves some interpretation. Jakob Van Bruggen wrote: "Every translator must make decisions about the meaning and purpose of the text" (Future of the Bible, p. 105). Bruggen noted: "Translators invariably must interpret, and godly interpretation requires the ministry of the Holy Spirit" (Ibid., p. 46). In his commentary on the Pastoral Epistles, Gordon Clark stated: “Every translation is to some extent a commentary or interpretation” (p. xiv). David Sorenson admitted: "To a certain degree, all translation is subjective" (Touch Not, p. 242). William Einwechter, who defends the KJV as the best available English translation, acknowledged: "All translation involves some degree of interpretation" (English Bible Translations, p. 16). William D. Mounce wrote: “All translation involves interpretation. It is impossible to translate without being interpretive” (Greek for the Rest of Us, p. 24). John Owen stated: "To reject all interpretation would thus be to deprive themselves [those who do not know the original languages] of the Scriptures entirely, for all translation is, of necessity, interpretation" (Biblical Theology, p. 806). William Ames (1576-1633) observed: "Among interpreters [translators], neither the seventy who turned them into Greek, nor Jerome, nor any other such held the office of a prophet; they were not free from errors in interpretation" (Marrow of Theology, p. 188). In their preface to the 1611, the KJV translators also referred to translators as "interpreters" and not "prophets." Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) said: "The Greek and Hebrew are the two eyes of a minister, and the translations are but commentaries, because they vary in sense as commentators do" (Baptist Encyclopedia, p. 362). Max Margolis commented: “The right kind of translation must not turn itself into a diffuse commentary, but an abbreviated commentary every translation must necessarily become. When the original admits of more than one interpretation, the translator must chose one to the exclusion of the others” (Story of Bible Translations, p. 122). Gary Gilley acknowledged that “all translations involve a certain amount of interpretation” (This Little Church, p. 84). Every translator interprets the text to some degree since he renders it as he understands (or misunderstands) it.
     
  8. Logos1560

    Logos1560
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    3,127
    Likes Received:
    2
    How many times have you found the KJV to depart from that principle?
     
  9. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes Received:
    3
    There many such examples; I just recently noticed Revelation 9:9 --

    And thei hadden haburiouns, as yren haburiouns, and the vois of her wengis as the vois of charis of many horsis rennynge `in to batel. (Wycliffe)

    And they had habbergions as it were habbergions of yron. And the sounde of their wynges was as the sounde of charettes when many horsses runne to gedder to battayle. (Tyndale)

    And they had habbergions, as it were habbergions of yron. And the sounde of their wynges, was as ye sounde of charettes whe many horsses runne together to battayle. (Coverdale)

    And they had habbergions, like to habbergions of yron: and the soud of their wings was like the sound of charets whe many horses runne vnto battel. (Geneva)

    And they had habbergions as it were habbergions of iron, and the sounde of their wynges was as ye sounde of charrettes when many horses runne together to batayle. (Bishops')

    And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings [was] as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.(KJV)
    Habergeon actually occurs 3 times in the KJV (2 Chronicles 26:14, Nehemiah 4:16, & Job 41:26). The same Hebrew word shiryown (Strong's #8302) in those verses is also translated as "breastplate" in Isaiah 59:17 showing that the KJV men thought the word 'habergeon' to be essentially synonomous with 'breastplate'. It is also rendered "coat of mail" at 1 Samuel 17:38 in the KJV. But for some reason the king's revisers choose to translate the Greek thorax (Strong's #2382) as "breastplate" in all 5 NT occurrences, despite the Bishops' and other previous English translations use of 'habbergion' in Revelation (twice in 9:9, and once in 9:17).
     
    #9 franklinmonroe, May 31, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2009

Share This Page

Loading...