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Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Mar 11, 2014.
In the sense that God ordains equally/same way those saved and those lost?
(I am about to teach a 10th grade class that confirmed the doctrine of reprobation for me )
Don't know due to insufficient information, but generally agree with mainstream PB infralapsarianism.
Please explain to me your understanding of Double predestination?
Better yet, ask him to show from scripture his understanding of double predestination.
that God chose by an act of his divine Will to predetermine who would be saved, who would be lost, and applied that equally to both classes.
So God was actively selecting those to save, andactively choosing all others to get lost!
My view is that while God actively chose just whom would get saved by his grace, He passively bypassed all the rest, permitting them to go the way they 'chose" to go, in rejection and in their sins!
OK....how would you know how he applied it....equally or otherwise? You wouldn't, right.
Agreed....remember Eph. 2
Well,you've started off with a faulty premise. Classic Reformed theology does not hold to equal ultimacy. Even Herman Hoeksema,falsely called a hyper-Calvinist rejected that. But he held to double predestination as have many Reformed-minded Christians through the centuries. Long before Calvin Gotteschalk (806-868) was imprisoned for decades for his strong predestinarian doctrine.
Here is snip of what R.C.Sproul said in his book "What is Reformed Theology?"
"Given that the Bible teaches both election and particularism, we cannot avoid the subject of double predestination. The question then is not if predestination is double,but how it is double. There are different views of double predestination. One of them is so frightening that many shun altogether the use of the term double predestination. This scary view is called equal ultimacy,and is based on a symmetrical view of predestination. It sees a symmetry between the work of God in election and his work in reprobation. It seeks an exact balance between the two. Just as God intervenes in the lives of the elect to create faith in their hearts, so he similarly intervenes in the hearts of the reprobate to work unbelief. The latter is inferred from biblical passages that speak of God's hardening people's hearts."
Sproul goes on to say that Classical Reformed theology rejects the doctrine of equal ultimacy.
But doesn't classic reformed theology normally uphold the Infra, not Supra view regarding to how the Lord Predestined?
And doesn't Double predestine as supported ny many, DOES hold to God causing the fate for both saved/lost byequal determination by His will?
I, too, am supralapsarian.
Logically, a person begins his planning process with what he ULTIMATELY wants and then walks it backwards from there concerning what steps he plans to take to accomplish that ultimate goal.
God's ultimate goal was to glorify himself in the salvation of sinners.
The following seems to represent the most logical and scriptural outworking of God's decrees:
1. the election of some men to salvation in Christ (and the reprobation of the rest of sinful
mankind in order to make known the riches of God's gracious mercy to the elect)
2. the decree to apply Christ's redemptive benefits to the elect sinners
3. the decree to redeem the elect sinners by the cross work of Christ
4. the decree that men should fall
5. the decree to create the world and men
isn't the Infra position regarding the Decrees of God though the one expressed in the Confessions, and the more dominant view in reformed circles though?
So EITHER view would be regarded as reformed and true Calvinistic then, correct?
I'd say so. But I don't speak for all the reformed people of the world.
I thought Calvinists believed if God allows something, then God ordained that thing? No?
If so, if God passes you by and "allows" you to go to hell, then he ordained it.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
So if God passes ya by....why don't you to just take your free will initiative and save yourself? There is your answer and I only like cheese cake....with strawberries.
I don't believe God passes people by. Have you ever read the parable of the Good Samaritan?
Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
The priest and the Levite "passed by" this poor man. But the Samaritan, who represents Jesus, had compassion and stopped and helped the man. And even when he had to leave, he left the man in the care of the innkeeper (Holy Spirit) until he would return.
God does not pass by people, but Calvinism falsely teaches that he does. Disgraceful.
Since I ain't no Calvinist I really don't care.....that generally po 's them though. But what do you care. Do you go to a Calvin church .....I don't think so right. So why would what they say or do bother you. And please don't tell me you got every detail figured out....that would be pretty arrogant. So why waist your energy fighting with them? Its just really beyond me.
BTW...I think its the guy that got beat up that's the Jesus figure.
Which is why I don't have a problem w/ reprobation.