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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by genesis12, Jan 16, 2006.
For we dispensationalists: How many Jews will survive the tribulation? Have you run the numbers?
I'll start with 144,000. Beyond that I have no clue, as to exact numbers.
Correction on precise terminology 144,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel, as denoted in Rev.7
There is no way of knowing. The Bible says 144,000 were sealed as witnesses and after this a great multitude out of ALL tribes were saved.
I don't believe there is any reason to believe that only these 144k Jews come out.
Revelation chapter 14 describes of 144k more clear as it refers to Revelation chapter 7. Both are same describe of 144k. 144k are not always Jews only as '12 tribes of Israel'. But also, Revelation chapter 14 describes mroe clear on the identify of 144k, who they are.
Rev. 14:3-4 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the eleders; and no man could learn that song but the hundredmand forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersover he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [Italic]being[/Italic] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."
This is speak of the people who shall be redeemed from the world, being "the firstfruits" of God.
Pretrib/disps believe all 144k are Jewish males, because Rev. 14:4 says, that they do not defiled with 'women'. That is their bad habit of intepreting the scripture. Often, they intepreting scriptures into literally. But, they are misunderstanding what the scripture is talking about.
Understand, it says, they are 'virgins'. 'Virgin' of Rev. 14:4 does not mean that they never sex with women, it means living holy and godly life, separated from the world.
'Women' of Rev. 14:4 does not mean, they are literal ladies. It is symbol for worldly system. 'Women' & 'virgin' of Rev. 14:4 is describe more deep in Revelation chapter 17 and 18. Rev. 18:4 warns us, that we must come out of 'her'. Means, we must be separated from the world. That we must being be virgin, to walking holy and godly. Do not compromising with the world as "commit adultery".
So, my point of Revelation chapter 14 gives the picture of the harvest of the followers and delivery them out of the world is the picture of rapture.
Also, Revelation 7:1-8 talk about 144k, seem this passage give the exactly details on the numbers of 144k of each 12 tribes. But, Rev. 7:9-17 explains more clearly of 144k, that they are impossible to count them, they are multitude, no limited numbers.
Remember, the book of Revelation is a heavily symbol book. We have to be careful when we reading, do not take them every into literally too much, unless depend on what the sentence saying. You have to read throughout the whole passage as contextually, so you shall able to understand what the whole passage is talking about.
144k is not always Jews, even also Gentiles too, because, Revelation chapter 14 explains more clear and deep.
Also, we are 144k, IF we follow Jesus Christ and walking holy and godly.
Conclusion: There is nothing new to the old fashion of the gospel since Early Church to today. We all know the fact that there are very small percent of Jews are saved today since Early Church to now. Because, Jews are still blinded and heart hardened reject Jesus as their Messiah, and the Son of God.
Also, we are already in tribulations since Early Church history to today. God only have two ages in his plans, not seven ages according to dispensationalism. Right now we are this present age that we are living in mortal world with sins, this present age have been currently since from the creation to now. This present age will be completed follow at the coming of Christ, to put mortal away, and destroyed the wicked. Everything shall all be changed into immortality that would be in the next age to come is eternality.
Myself believe Satan shall be revealed, as he shall be loosed out of the way(2 Thess. 2:6-8; Rev. 17:8; 20:3,7) to deceive the nations but for a while time(more likely around 3 1/2 years). I believe many Jews shall face greater test being tempt by Satan to convice them to accept him as their Messiah. Not only Jews, also, Gentiles include ourselves shall face greater test too.
I believe more likely more Jews shall believe in Jesus Christ, and realize that Jesus is their true Messiah, when after Satan shall be revealed.
But, yet there is nothing new under the old fashion gospel, it have nothing chnage since early church history to today, it always remain the same plan till the end of the age.
Hey, what about Romans 11:25-26? Disps believe Jews shall be saved at the coming of Christ at the end of the age. They are partially correct. But, the context of Romans chapter 11 focus on the tree of salvation for everyone of the world. 'All Israel shall be saved' is speak of all Jews and Gentiles shall be saved as it is completed at Christ's coming.
Me4Him, I forget what you were trying to telling me something on Romans chapter 11. I think you want me to read verse 33 to 36, right? I did read verse 34 to 36, this say nothing anything about Jews. Notice above 32 says, "For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL." Notice word, 'all' obivously apply to every persons either Jew or Gentile. Same with Romans 10:12.
I hope that you understand what Revelation chapter 7 and 14 talking about. By the way, both chapters talking about the gathering of the 144k shall be at the coming of Christ at the end of the age is the picture of harvest or rapture. Revelation chapter 7 and 14 say nothing anything that 144k ("Jewish evangelists") shall evangeling the gospel over all nations(Gentiles) during so called 'seven year of tribulaiton period'. That is man-made doctrine.
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
I was wondering if you or any of your dispensationalists brotheren have ever even considered looking at any other type of eschatology?
Or, have you looked back into Church History to see what may have been prominent all along?
Food for thought!
My computer just ate my response I was writing. I'll try again. 'mr' writes:
"There is no way of knowing. The Bible says 144,000 were sealed as witnesses and after this a great multitude out of ALL tribes were saved.
I don't believe there is any reason to believe that only these 144k Jews come out." (sic)
This is basically in agreement with some of what I blieve.
dpt writes: "Pretrib/disps believe all 144k are Jewish males, because Rev. 14:4 says, that they do not defiled with 'women'. That is their bad habit of intepreting the scripture. Often, they intepreting scriptures into literally. But, they are misunderstanding what the scripture is talking about. " (sic)
I guess I would be considered a dispensationalist, as well as believing in a pre-tribulation rapture.
So you are saying this is what I believe? With all due respect, I don't believe we have ever met. And I think I have responded to only one small part of one post that you have written until now. I don't recall making this claim.
dpt again: "Also, we are 144k, IF we follow Jesus Christ and walking holy and godly."
Chapter and verse, please that tells us "WE" are part of the 144K?
"Also, we are already in tribulations since Early Church history to today. God only have two ages in his plans, not seven ages according to dispensationalism. "
I will adopt, for the purpose of this response, something I do not believe, namely that any of what is described in Matthew 24-25 'refers' to the 'church age'. The tribulation is described, I believe in stages, here, Matt. 24:9 speaks of it being a the future (afflicted-KJV) tribulation (ESV, ASV) Gk.-thlipsis- same word elsewhere rendered correctly as 'tribulation', "then shall be 'great tribulation' (Matt. 24:21), and 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the... (Mat. 24:28). I had given little attention to the word 'Immediately' until today, having assumed that this was a progression or a timeline, in the future. The future uses of 'shall' and 'will' required this, 'after' shows the progression, and 'Immediately' confirms this as a timeline. The question now becomes, assuming we are in this tribulation, or is this somehow different from 'tribulations', when did it start. I dunno'. 9/11? Christmas Day 2004 with the Tsunami? New Orleans this year? the Asian earthquake(s)? How about the quake in Asia a few years ago that took a toll of 1/4 million. I would that any 'picking' is a bit of "man-made doctrine", which has been referred to. I'm not fond of that , either.
The second comment you made that I shall reply to is this:
"God only have two ages in his plans, not seven ages according to dispensationalism."
What are these two ages? I would suggest that you see at least four, yourself. Are we, today, in 'an age'? What about the time forward from Abraham until the cross? What about before Abraham; before the Flood; a "Kingdom Age" yet to come? Do you see any of these? It is a fair question. I would also sugest that all so-called dispensationalists do not necessarily see seven dispensations. That is not the number I agree with, unlike Scofield e.g., for it does not cover at least one named in specifically in Scripture. The Bible names two 'Dispensations' explicitly- the dispensation of the grace of God, and the dispensation of the fullness of times. (Eph. 1:10; 3:1-10; esp.5) and speaks of "other ages" in context and contrast in Eph 3. I accept the administration/dispensational concept, because it is taught in Scripture, not because of anything Scofield, Darby, (whom I've never read at all), Ryrie, or anyone else says so. Their opinion may, and probably is, more informed than mine. It is an opinion, nevertheless- little more. I want to be more interested in the source, not the commentary.
Do I understand eveything Revelation is speaking of? You GOTTA' be kidding! Do I understand a few things? I think so. I have had an unusual opportunity re Revelation. I have had five different pastors who taught the book verse by verse. I have filled in a couple of times in an absence. I have read it entirely through a dozen or more times, in more than one version. Twice I read it non-stop once KJV, once ASV. (Don't try this with my ASV, by the way, the bad print will give you a splitting headache! And I speak from exerience.) I have gone through the book two times in SS lesson series, as a student, not teacher. I had a three hour credit college course on Daniel/Revelation in Bible College where I earned my B.A.. I, as a first semester graduate student, same course, prepared detailed outlines and notes for each session of the course, annoying school President XYZ (and course Prof.) along the way with some diverging views to the degree that he actually had two other Profs. teach in his stead, the two days he was absent, rather than allow me as was the usual practice. I chose to end that pursuit at the end of that semester, primarily because of what I perceived as bias and the ill-treatment received. I was not interested in being an XYZ clone. I said all this not to brag, but in the words of one appearing on these pages from time to time, usually unfavorably, "No ___! I'm just giving you my credentials." If I offend you or anyone, I apologize. It was never intended. In His grace, Ed
Pretribs teaching Matthew chapter 24 and 25 are for Israel only, not applyt to the Church. The problem is, Christ doesn't saying, 'Jews'. He said, 'Ye', 'you' find about 19 times in the context of chapter 24. Obivously, Christ is speak toward us, well also 12 disciples were Christ's followers.
We are now in tribulations since early Church history. By the way I am not either partial or full preterism. They believe Matt 24:15-21 already fulfilled in 70 A.D. Full preterists believe whole Matthew chapter 24 include verse 29-31 already fulfilled in year 70 A.D. I strong disagree with them. No record of history telling us, that a person sees Jesus Christ comes down in the sky in year 70 A.D. Clear, Christ is up in the heaven.
I believe Matt. 24:15-21 is a future great tribulation, when Satan shall be revealed as Messiah to deceived the nations include Israel (2 Thess. 2:6-8; Rev. 17:8; Rev. 20:3, & 7). Israel shall suffering great holocaust as horrible persecution. Thousands of Jews shall be killed. Not only Jews, also, Gentiles well as Christians many shall be killed.
I believe great tribulation shall be last for only around 42 months(Rev. 13:5).
Later, I will post to show you verses for the comparing on parallel between this present age and age to come.
I think somewhere in Zephaniah saying that 1/3 of Jews shall be remain left to be survived at the coming of Christ. 2/3 of Jews shall be killed, but, not only survived, also shall be cast away into the lake of fire at Christ's coming for the judgment day.
Dispensationalists focus on "Jews" relate with seven year of tribulation period too much, as they emphasis tribulation period is for Israel only.
Bible tells us, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, both are same, because we are all have sinned.
We as Christians are appointed for tribulation because Christ suffered on the cross, therefore, we should follow Christ's example. - 1 Thess. 3:3-4; 1 Peter 2:21.
History telling us, thousands, or millions of Christians(both Jews & Gentiles) were persecution and killed throughout churhc history. Aren't we better than them? No, we have to be prepared for any trials, troubles, tribulations, persecutions, because the world hate us, but world hate Christ first before us.
Later this week or next week, I will make a post to show you the comparing on parallel between 'this age' & 'age to come' with verses.
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
A minor correction, 144,000 from 11 tribes: the tribe of Dan is not mentioned, and Manessah and Ephriam are (not Joseph)
Why is it when an OP is directed to dispies that non-dispies feel a need to respond?
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. (Revelation 7:4-8)
I count 12 tribes, Richard (Rev. 7:4-8) 12,000 x 12 = 144,000; 12,000 x 11 = 132,000. Scripture says 144,000
Richard, notice that the tribe of Joseph is mentioned in Rev. 7:8 and Ephraim is not mentioned at all, just Manasses in Rev.7:6
richard in Koustas writes:
A minor correction, 144,000 from 11 tribes: the tribe of Dan is not mentioned, and Manessah and Ephriam are (not Joseph)
Anyone know why the Tribe of Dan is not included in Revelation 7?
Linda: I stand corrected, I was typing from memory... But, since Joseph only had 2 sons, then Ephraim is included by default.
drfuss: I asked this very same question a while ago on this board...I was told that it was because the tribe of Dan fell into idolatry.
Richard is correct.
Dan was one of the cities of the Northern Kingdom in which a golden calf was set up.
Beth-el was the other.
Hos 4:17 Ephraim is joined to idols; let him alone.
Folks, the Bible gives a "close estimate".
Isa 10:19 And the rest of the trees (people)of his forest shall be few, (trib survivors) that a child may write them. (the number)
20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Can you explain to us "WHY" the church only "Spiritually crucify the old man of flesh",
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,
While Israel, during the trib, will have to "LITERALLY" crucify the old man of flesh", to be saved???
Re 13:15 and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,
Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and they loved not their lives unto the death.
I explained all this in the "Charts/articles" I posted, evidently, you didn't do your "homework".
What about poor old Dan? He got left out!
A minor correction, 144,000 from 11 tribes: the tribe of Dan is not mentioned, and Manessah and Ephriam are (not Joseph) </font>[/QUOTE]Joseph is mentioned [Revelation 7:8], Ephraim is not.