How much authority should a pastor/bishop have?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by AresMan, Aug 11, 2006.

  1. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    How much authority is a "pastor" (bishop) over the local flock granted by the Scripture, and how applicable is it in spiritual and/or secular situations?

    Does a pastor have the authority to tell a teenager in his church where to go to college, and does the teenager have an obligation before God to obey?

    Does a pastor have the authority to tell a member of the local assembly what job that person must have (such as one that does not require that member to work on Wednesday night or the "Sabbath" [i.e. Sunday])?

    Does a pastor have the authority to tell someone already going to a college to drop out of that college and pastor a particular church?

    Yes, these questions are from specific instances I have observed/have been told about.
     
  2. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is hard to answer. Each local church is an entity to itself. Each church has a Consitution and by laws which should go a long way towards answering that question.

    However, in the instances you posted, I would have to say absolutely not.

    I believe the pastor to be the spiritual and administrative head of a local church under Jesus Christ. That does not make him king. Unless unScriptural, the church body should be keen to listen to his direction for the church from the Lord, not a rubber stamp, but praying.

    There have been a few times I have seen pastors exceed their authority, mostly in administrative matters, such as the removal of a church officer from his job when that is a vote of the congregation and other such instances, but this does not happen very often.
     
  3. J.D.

    J.D.
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,553
    Likes Received:
    8
    Concerning the specific questions, the answers are: No, no, and no. I recommend you get out of that cult and run for your life! (speaking as a former cult member).
     
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    3,896
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  5. El_Guero

    El_Guero
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a difficult question to adress. Without knowing if the pastor is in sin or not.

    If the pastor is a servant of the Most High God, and the pastor is submitted to the Authority of God Himself - yes.

    If he is not speaking on behalf of God, then he is not a pastor IMHO.

    God has never told me to intervene in the life of another, that He did not mean what He said. What is the real difference between, "Repent and be forgiven of your sin" and "Get right with God - where you are going to college is leading you astray"?

    The problem becomes when a man pretends to be a servant of God. Whew! I think the advice there was run - I agree.
     
  6. MorganT

    MorganT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    214
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK for conversation sake I have a question. A Pastor is a hired employee of the church therefore he can be hired, and fired. In my view the Pastor only has as much authority as the majority of the church allows him. Also just because you are a preacher doesnt make you a pastor or elder and an elder is elected to that position, how could an 18 yr old just being saved goto seminary and finish say at the age of 25 being only 7 yrs saved be an elder in a church I ask you. He would have all the tools needed to be a preacher but not a Pastor. Just some questions that bother me quite frankly. What if a man with that case went to a small country church and declared himself a Pastor, I dont see how just because you preach in a church you are automatically a Pastor.
     
  7. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Without knowing the Pastors side I would hate to comment specifically. However, I preach, teach and believe with all my heart, the model for the Church is that of the Sheep & Shepherd. This model is used repeated in the Bible to illustrate the relationship of leader and follower. I further believe the Pastor is accountable to Christ for the job he does.

    Since every fiber of the Pastors being should be focused and committed to the well being of his flock, my question is why would a Pastor make these suggestions? You state these are specific instances but that's a wide open statement.

    ie... If I knew the college one of my members planned to attend or was attending taught a doctrine or demanded a lifestyle contrary to my members walk with Christ. And, If I knew that particular individual was weak or easily influenced then I would make my feelings very well known. It's not about what others think of you, I couldn't live with myself if I remained quite.

    As for a Job, again, if the member chose to be a pimp or escort. If they chose to work in a bar or or anything not legal or against the moral teachings of Christ then I feel it's the Pastors job to speak up. I would say woe unto him if he speaks not up.

    I hope this helps to understand the Pastors side of the situation. Remember, the Pastor is obligated to not spread others business so there may be a lot more to the story than what you've heard.
     
  8. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    I disagree with this statement. I believe preachers are called by GOD. They are not hired and fired they are sent via much prayer and supplications by the Church. I believe some Churches do hire pastors but I would not have my membership at a Church like that. The pastors boss should be Christ who will move (or remove) him when the time comes. Yes, that might be by member vote but if a preacher has 2/3 of the flock voting against him?????

    You mean like Timothy who Pastored his first Church at 16. The tools you speak of come from Christ. He "equips" his leaders. He is truly the spiritual leader of the Church working through the man of God. Yes, we make mistakes. Yes, we get better the longer we do the job. Yes, the Lord chastises his preachers when they go astray.
     
    #8 LeBuick, Aug 11, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2006
  9. MorganT

    MorganT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    214
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you reread I did say these are some questions that bother me or that I have a problem understanding. I understand that a true Pastor is sent from God but he is still a man I have seen Pastors in this area not mine but in this area that have had affairs, if I was a member of that church I would be the first to call for his removal (fired) also in most small churchs the Pastor is the only one that recieves money from the church so therefore he is indeed an employee of that congregation because if the money stopped being paid how long do you think that Gods man would stick around.
    In the area there is a huge baptist church and I think I dont know but I have heard that the pastor there gets $100,000.00 a yr and Im sure that there are members of his congregation that dont have enough money to pay rent do you think that he should be living above his flock remember now he is the head SERVANT of the church and he is there PASTOR sent by GOD so he should know there needs and there needs quite frankly are not being met. There is more to being a Pastor than preaching however do you think that you could be a preacher at a church and not be a Pastor
     
  10. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry


    A Pastor should be "supported" by the Chuch, not a salary. This is because he is technically not an employee, but a "servant." This was ordained by Paul in 1 Cor 16:1. If the Church looses their pastor because they are not able to support him full time then his heart is not right. God will deal with him. We have many preachers around here that Pastor for a Love offering each Sunday. One get's about $8 and he is there every Sunday come rain or shine.

    I know preachers that make far more than that. Example, look at TD Jakes and the lot. The Pastor should prosper as the Church prospers. Notice I did not say as every individual in the Church prospers but the Church as an aggregate body. I do know your feelings when you see a Pastor dring a brand new Rolls while the Church is in foreclosure or can hardly make their monthly bills... That is a travesty.

    My support is posted in the notes of every quarterly business meeting so every member knows exactly what support I get.

    Yes, there are many preachers in the Church that are not the Pastor. They often do a lot of the visiting, teaching and at times even the preaching. Most Pastors put their time (pay their dues) in these unsupported positions before becoming the Pastor.
     
  11. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    Most Baptist pastors I know tell of God's call to the ministry. Because they must give account to God, due consideration and much weight should be given to their views on where the church should be going and how he wants to get them there.

    When the pastor desires for the church to undertake a project, he should get the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, a wise pastor will not drag a congregation where it obviously does not want to go.



    I am familiar with a charismatic group which formed in my city years ago. There was heavy emphasis on of sheperding by and submission to the elders. The rank and file folks were told to bring to the elders such questions as whether to take a new job, if and where to take a vacation,

    I have no problem with asking for prayer about the job, but the vacation? Not hardly.
     
  12. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    An inquiry to those of you with an Independent Fundamentalist Baptist background:

    In the area where I live, it was not uncommon for the IFB pastor to hold title to the church property and have great control over the finances of the church. The "strong pastor" model appeard to be widespread. Is this typical of IFB churches? Or should I say, is this still typical?

    Did the "strong pastor" model lead to such situations as outlined in the OP?
     
  13. MorganT

    MorganT
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2006
    Messages:
    214
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you I believe I understand it better and I do understand a Pastor receiving money however if a Pastor was being wise with GODs money I cannot see him justifing being paid such a redicuious salary. Take this example the church supplys a home, car, and utilities why would a Pastor accept more than what he needed to live on. In the bible I have not seen were any of the apostles were rich as a matter of fact it tells of people selling all that they had in order to give to the church and I cannot see the church turning around and giving what was given to the lord to the Pastor its not how I have seen examples given in the bible. A Pastor that is truly Gods man that is doing Gods will will not be glutnous the money is given to the lord I say put that money to work for the lord in missions and other outreachs not to a single man that should not need that much if he is looking to the lord. Just my thoughts anyhow.
     
  14. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    Thank you. Good words, mostly, MorganT
     
  15. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Messages:
    978
    Likes Received:
    23
    Tom Butler,

    For what it is worth my friend in answer to the orignal OP the pastor has no biblical right to insert himself as an authority above the father or mother in a home. How can we train our men to make spiritual decisions if we usurp their authority in the home?

    As to your question I do not know of any pastors who hold the deeds to their church property. But many in times past when starting churches took it upon themselves to purchase property and buildings under their own good credit as an act of charity to the future congregation that they trusted the Lord would raise up in that place. I doubt that it was the intention at the time to keep the property most likely they simply wanted a home for their church.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2002
    Messages:
    8,123
    Likes Received:
    1
    The Bible says:

    The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
    Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
    Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 1 Peter 5:1-4

    Therefore, the primary function of the Pastor is spiritual and doctrinal.

    In the Philippines, some pastors require that female single members of courtship age must tell them who are courting them. And if the males are members of the same church, or the same "fellowship of churches", that these should first go to the pastor and tell them of their intent to court a female, before even going to the parents of the girl.

    The pastors have a say on the kinds of jobs their members could take, and even how short a female member (even married ones) may have their hair cut, or how long a male member can have his hair grow.

    Is this Biblical, is this doctrinal ?

    They cite the fact that Hebrews 13:17 commands members to obey those that have the rule over them since these will give account for their souls. Do you think this is a correct interpretation to do the above ?

    I think it is ridiculous.

    A pastor of a church in which we were members of (in the Philippines) once went on his daily visitation rounds and came to our home. It was my wife's birthday (he did not know it, in fairness to him, so he wasn't there for the cake).
    My wife often worked late into the night as a seamstress, and the previous night was no exception.
    On that birthday, she decided she would go to the hairdresser and have her hair trimmed.
    She fell asleep, and when she woke up, the hairdresser had cut her hair really short.
    She came home really upset, on her birthday, and we all felt sorry for her because she is not one to have her hair cut that short.
    Then this pastor comes in, and after the usual exchange, went to work on her, upbraiding her for her hair, upbraiding her for going to a hairdresser who was homo, right in front of me and our daughter, in our house, on my wife's birthday.
    I told him to get out of the house right there and then, because if he doesn't I will bodily throw him out of the house, and I don't care if he teaches that pastors are like Moses to whom God said, touch not mine anointed. I will touch him. I don't enjoy watching my wife cry.

    What do you think ?
     
  17. blackbird

    blackbird
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2002
    Messages:
    11,898
    Likes Received:
    2
    The answer is---no, no, no--to all three!! See there, I made a "hundred" on your exam!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    The dude is pitiful!! Out of all the hundreds of thousands of men out in the world who pastor faithfully and truthfully---stories of men like these are taken---and although they are in the minority---the minority is taken and magnified to the point where the average parishiner is led to believe that the minority is the majority!!--With stories like this---the world is led to believe that all---every stinkin' one of us pastors---are crazy loons!!!!

    I know for a fact--there is a pastor in a local town I use to pastor in---I met the guy---although I never was moved to be personal friends with him----anyway---to make a long story short---turns out that this pastor "led" the majority of his church members to quit their jobs---sell their houses---and move to Montana with him to "do ministry"---BTW---he promised them that "The Lord will give them all jobs!" when they got there!!!----well---when they got there----there were no jobs and no houses----the members who followed this pastor like little puppies--were left "high and dry!!!"

    Blackbird
     
    #17 blackbird, Aug 12, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 12, 2006
  18. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen and Amen! Call it the Diotrophes cult in Biblical terms!

    Ed
     
  19. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    BULL! This is not a difficult question to address at all! Under what possible scenario do you see this wannabe Pope having this authority to get into one's personal life? If a situation is affecting the church or individual, the question of church discipline is applicable, and should be followed. Outside that, you simply have someone throwing his or her weight around, in this.

    Ed
     
  20. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nothin' like a little free speculation! Uh- Chapter and verse, please??

    Ed
     

Share This Page

Loading...