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How much of Christ can a person distort and still worship the one true Christ?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Daniel David, Mar 4, 2004.

  1. vaspers

    vaspers New Member

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    Daniel David, you have brought up an extremely important topic, one of the most crucial I've ever seen in my short time on this Baptist Board.

    You began a list of required doctrines about the Christ.

    I encourage you to finish it, then nail that "95 Theses" thing on this here Baptist Board.

    I John and other NT writings talk of the "doctrine of Christ" and "following another Jesus whom we did not preach."

    Gnostic "Jesus" who was ephemeral, non-physical was an erroneous version of Jesus during early church time period.

    Then there's the Jesus is one thing, the "Christ Spirit" is another thing doctrine of New Agey type groups, I think Theosophy, Unity School, others.

    Keep researching this vital issue, DD.

    I may throw down my own list, but I will adhere strictly to Biblical terminology like "Son of Man" and "My Lord and My God" and "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself"...

    ...but no man-made theological terms, like "Second Person of the Blessed Triune Godhead" or "God the Son" or "the God-man." I'm not saying these ideas are heretical, just that I cannot in good conscience use non-biblical terms.


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  2. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Is there a scriptural requirement for Christians to believe that scripture is the perfect reflection of Christ? Written words, not even inerrant scripture, can "prefectly reflect" a living breathing risen savior. It is idolatrous to elevate scripture to a deific level. I worship God, not scripture. I have a relationship with Jesus, not the Bible.
     
  3. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    DD, to the Calvinist/Reformed, one who is not of that group has distorted Christ in terms of omniscience and omnipotence as they define those terms.

    To the non-Calvinist/non-Reformed, one who is Calvinist/Reformed is distorting the character of Christ in denying His love for all men and His proferred mercy towards all, as well as a good many passages in the Bible.

    You are one of these, I am the other. Are you willing to say I do not worship the true Christ?

    People worship God as they understand Him, and only God knows the heart, for all of us have incomplete understanding. Are there some JW's or some Mormons who are saved? Very possibly. The minute their hearts swing toward the Christ of the Bible and away from their religious doctrines, who are we to say they are damned? Who are we to say that God does not accept worship from a heart responding to all of the truth of Christ it knows up to that point?

    In short, I don't think we should judge or challenge others to judge what another person knows and responds to. We CAN befriend as many people as possible and help them to dig deeper into Scripture. In the process, I'm sure we will also learn more and come to more of an understanding of the true character of Christ.
     
  4. vaspers

    vaspers New Member

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    Nice post Helen, though many would call you a heretic for saying these gracious words.

    I don't believe there will be very many Baptists in heaven. Or Catholics. Or any denomination. From where I sit, it looks like the vast majority of church goers are indeed hypocrites, Sunday Christians, pew potatoes, hoping their "doctrinal correctness" instilled by the denomination, catechism, and loyalty to leadership, will do the trick.

    You are so right, that God looks on the heart, and judges not our doctrinal perfection, but our obedience to what light we have, our genuine love for Jesus Christ, as best as we understand Him. Keep that attitude Helen. It is rare and very precious.

    I hope I'm wrong about the majority of churchians, but boy I've seen a lot of hostility toward unchurched, "liberals," Democrats, secular media, psychology, etc. that is like a hostile paranoia more than compassionate but firm spiritual discernment.

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  5. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Helen, I am not talking about interpretive issues such as calvinism or arminianism.

    The classic forms of each actually do not distort the Scriptural revelation of Christ.

    JWs and Mormons do though.

    Christ said, "If you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

    JWs and Mormons reject the deity of Christ. There are no saved JWs or Mormons.
     
  6. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    You may have a big surprise in heaven, DD. While I would agree with you that there are probably not going to be any leaders of either of those cults or any others in heaven, it may be a far different story regarding some of the members.

    The clue I found regarding this in the Bible had to do with sin entering the world through ADAM, not Eve, who was the first to eat in disobedience. But she was deceived, and thus the responsiblity for ushering sin into the human race does not seem to be devolved upon her.

    So what of the young man or woman born into a Mormon family who has been raised to believe Mormon doctrine, knowing nothing else? What if this young person actually reads the Bible for himself and starts praying to the God of the Bible? What about the young Mormon woman who is married to a Mormon man in a tabernacle marriage. She has four or five children, lives next door to a pain in the neck like me who is a friendly Christian, and starts to quietly question her own faith? Is she damned if she quietly tries to simply read Bible for herself and to her children, praying for God to help her? If she refuses to leave her husband and children, but remains in the LDS church, is she a lost soul?

    There are literally thousands of Mormons in these and similar positions, who are not sure which way to turn, but know that they prefer what they learn from the Bible instead of from the stake president or bishop. Dick Baer is a personal friend who lost his wife and family when he preferred the Jesus of the Bible to the Jesus of Mormonism. He pulled through. Many can't.

    Best to let God judge.

    We have a dear friend who is a JW. He knows we consider him deluded concerning his faith, and his questions about different things in the Bible come very slowly through the weeks and months of our fun times together. He is searching for the truth, but he is also afraid to search because you must remember that cults control through fear.

    Who are we to say at what moment any of these lovely and searching people have made that quiet, blessed step from damned to saved?

    Let God judge, DD, and let us just be the best friends we can be to these people, with our lives and caring as witnesses of God's love and reality.

    ========

    Thank you, Vaspers. I have lived in the midst of Mormons most of my life and have seen a lot of this first hand. My heart aches for many of them who see no way out but want the God of the Bible more than the gods of Mormonism.

    Like you, I look at people in church and sometimes wonder.... and all I know how to do is pray for them and encourage them in their walk with Christ and faith when we are together. Sometimes that has led to some surprising results, which makes it all the more worthwhile to continue doing that.
     
  7. vaspers

    vaspers New Member

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    Yes Helen...you have articulated something that has been rumbling around in my head for decades...

    ...the fact that "doctrinal purity" can be contained in hypocritical garbage cans.

    Jesus was most harsh NOT with gays, or abortionists, or political activists (Zealots), or alcholics or punk rockers or drug fiends...

    ...He was most harsh with "doctrinal purity" religionists (Pharisees and scribes) who were inflated with pride (Lucifer's sin) over their grand dogmatic assertions and creeds...

    ...whilst caring nothing for the widows, the orphans, the poor, the outcast, the sinners who were searching for hope and peace and forgiveness.

    Who are today's Pharisees and scribes?

    They ususally call themselves by the names of theologians, rather than calling themselves by the simple title of "Christian" or "believer" or "saint." They have to separate themselves and call themselves "Calvinists" or "Armenians" or "Anti-Calvinists" or "Spurgeonites" or "Anti-Spurgeonites" or whatever. Silly. I Corinthians 1:11-13 directly tells us not to call ourselves followers of any man, but people persist to disobey this command and call themselves "(fill in the blank)-ists."

    A certain amount of doctrine is required to be saved. But after that, we will be judged for eternal rewards NOT by doctrinal purity, but only by charitable deeds. Period.

    Seeking and arriving at true doctrine will be rewarded, but the rewards will be taken away if they are not backed up by loving actions to help others who are lost and suffering.

    Jesus praised a CULT MEMBER as a role model for charitable actions: the Good SAMARITAN. Let's never forget what this Samaritan was: lousy doctrine but wonderful compassion.

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  8. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Helen, any person who does not repent and embrace Christ goes to hell.

    It doesn't matter if they are deceived or not. To use your examples, it really doesn't matter how much help they call out for if they do not embrace who Christ is (not a twist of him).

    All stand condemned before God from the beginning. Only those who repent and believe will be saved from his wrath.
     
  9. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Is doctrinal purity not a command to the church?

    Doctrine is simply what is taught, it is not a dirty word and doctrine never condemned anyone, never split any church, nor caused any hurt feelings.

    All of these come because men do not want to receive the word of God, even while they profess belief, they pursue their own body of doctrine and set about to teach that.

    I do not believe that I have ever heard what I have read here, that folks will be justified because of the sins of their leaders. Except once in a hospital when a mother of a young man called me to speak with him after having a serious accident, the 'clergy'(catholic) there refused to let me see him even after he was stabilized because they argued his eternal condition was not important, he if dying would be judged according to what his mother believed. Sadly, his mother received this as truth herself.

    Brother Dallas
     
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