How much say should government have in the church?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Spinach, Dec 14, 2009.

  1. Spinach

    Spinach
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    Any time I discuss abortion, same-sex marriage, etc. with an unbeliever, I get the same response----that I should not try to legislate personal beliefs. Blech.

    So I was thinking about the flip side of not wanting God in government----how much say should government have about God? About the church? About rules of the church? What if a church performs sacrifices? What then?

    Thoughts?
     
  2. JohnDeereFan

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    Well, first of all, I would point out that we already legislate those things.

    It's already illegal to kill children. It's just not illegal to kill some children, based on their level of development and location.

    So it really isn't a matter of legislating against abortion as much as it is a matter of making laws against killing children consistent for all children.

    Second, we're not trying to legislate against same sex marriage. We're against the redefinition of marriage.

    We've got to stop playing the left's semantic games. As long as we allow them to define our terms, they're going to continue to be able to portray us as hateful, racist, homophobe, etc.

    And isn't it interesting that liberals never seem to have a problem with the fact that the Civil Rights Movement began in the church and was a result of black churches trying to legislate such things. Same with slavery and the Quakers and Anabaptists.
     
  3. rbell

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    My response to those who think such: "All legislation is rooted in morality. Otherwise, why legislate at all?"

    Legislation will always enforce a set of societal beliefs (which is a collection of personal beliefs). Question is...what worldview undergirds those beliefs? The God of Scripture? Or the god (he thinks, for the time being) of this world?
     
  4. Johnv

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    Well, everyone votes based on personal belief, so that's not much of an argument. A better argument, though is that we should not vote strictly on religious beliefs. We should vote whether or not something is socially appropriate. For example, taking the Lord's name in vain is scripturally wrong. But I would never vote for a law that made it illegal for a person to do so in the privacy of their own homes. OTOH, I would vote for a law that restricts abortion funding, because it's not appropriate to expect society to pay for a person's elective abortion. The fact that my religious beliefs concur with my vote on the issue is secondary to my vote.
     
  5. Salty

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    Basically Nada, none, zero.

    If a church wants to provide no handicap spots, if they will not hire a female pastor, if they want to pack 100 people into a room meant for 80...thats there business -
     
    #5 Salty, Dec 14, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2009
  6. Johnv

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    Okay, you're right on everything except that. A church building must adhere to building and similar codes. If the law requires you to have X number of handicapped parking spaces, then you need to have X number of parking spaces. A church shouldn't be exempt from codes such as these just because they're a chruch.
     
  7. OldRegular

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    I agree that buildings for worship and ancillary structures should conform to building codes where appropriate. However, once that is conceded then these facilities become subject to zoning restrictions, noise protests, parking problems; you name it and someone will raise an objection just to cause a problem for Christians.
     
  8. billwald

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    Rastafarians can (legally) sacrifice chickens. Children, that's a different matter.

    Churches effectively cede authority to the government when churches ask for special tax status.
     
  9. Johnv

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    It's not conceded at all. It's a prerequisite. There's no moral or constitutitional right for a church to build a building without adhering to building codes.
     
  10. Salty

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    So you would rather have a handicap spot, then restrict the number of people in a building (for safety purposes) - wow.


    The op asked if
    Code:
    ...how much say should government  have about God? 
    About the church? About rules of the church? 
    I say they (the govt) should have none. Now if a church wants to have 30% of its spots for handicap, 10% for pregnant moms, 5% for senior citizens, and another 5% for military personnel, that should be their business.

    I am sick and tired of people saying that the church should stay of the the govt, but they never mention that the govt should stay out of the church - which was the original intention of the Constitution.
     
  11. Johnv

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    Where did I say that? Oh, wait, I didn't.

    Again, there's no moral or constitutitional right for a church to build a building without adhering to building codes.
     
  12. Salty

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    Oops:BangHead: Sorry about that Johnny I read the post too quick - it appears we agree.

    Now one thing I would say - is let the govt inspect and make recommendations -only - then it would be up to the individual if they want to be in the building. For example, if the fire dept said it would only be safe for 80 people to be in the building, then I would not go in if there was 150. but mind you, that would be my decision, not the government.

    If the parking lot had spaces for 100 vehicles (according to NY law, there would have to be at least 5 handicap spots) but there was only one handicap person in the church - then why do we need to have unneeded reserve spaces....
     
  13. annsni

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    Completely agree. I was having a "discussion" about homosexual marriage and was told that I have hate against a certain group of people because I don't think that they should have equal rights to marry that I do. I told them that they have EVERY right I have to marry - within the framework of what marriage is and who the government allows to marry. A man cannot marry his own sister no matter how much he loves her. Does that mean that I am taking away their civil rights? No. A gay person has just as much right to marry as I do but there are limits as to who they can marry. We cannot accept their terms in their arguments because we will not win otherwise.
     
  14. Salty

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    and that is the reason my web site has a page dedicated to L. E. F. T.

    Salty
     
  15. Johnv

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    Woohoo!!
    I disagree completely. A church building should be subject to the same building codes as any other building. A church should not be allowed to disregard building codes just because it's a church. There's no moral or constitutitional right for a church to build a building without adhering to building codes.
     
  16. saturneptune

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    Excellent post. Lots of the posts seem to be concentrating on buildings, which is not the church, believers are. From that basis, the government should have no say so whatsoever in the affairs of a local congregation.
     
  17. targus

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    Are these suggestions just for church buildings or buildings in general?
     
  18. OldRegular

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    I did not say there was. The use of the word conceded was metaphorical!
     
  19. Revmitchell

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    So he is metaphorically conceded? :smilewinkgrin:
     
  20. OldRegular

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    My own personal opinion is that churches should not be exempt from property taxes. I think it is only a matter of time before that is ruled unconstitutional. Why should an unbeliever pay higher property tax because a church pays none.
     

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