How serious do you take end-time prophecies or visions of hell?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Jun 24, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

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    I don't know, but I really cannot take this stuff serious anymore.
    There are so many people which claim they have been in hell and Jesus sent them back to warn us. How likely is this? I mean would you, as an unbeliever, really listen to somebody who claims he saw hell? Would you not think that this person is insane?
    Why should God do such a thing? And after all does the bible not say that even if somebody came back from the dead they will not believe?
    I have read a book from a person called Baxter. She claimed to have seen both heaven and hell. She describes hell as a place where Satan and his demons torture people with spears and where they do all kinds of sadistic stuff. Or where people stand in little dumps with blistering coals. I have also heard another hell testimony of somebody who claims to have been in hell and he said it was like in a horror movie with giant spiders running around.
    Do you take this seriously?
    And what do you think about these typical end-time prophecies?
    Somehow they all sound more or less the same. I just read a prophecy of a woman which claims to have had a vision of the rapture and then after the rapture the holy spirit departed from the earth. If the holy spirit is gone from the earth then how are people supposed to get saved? Because even after the rapture some people will convert?
    Anyway, she said that everything was dark and that people could now even see demons because the holy spirit was gone. And she also said Jesus comes soon and so on. And of course this woman expected the christians to believe her and emphasized that her vision was real.
    Do we, as christians, have to take this stuff seriously? I mean let's say it really is from God and you think that it's nonsense then will God be angry at you? But on the other hand if you take every prophecy which is out there seriously then you'll become pretty messed up. :confused:
     
  2. carpro

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    If a prophecy is not in the Bible, I'm not interested.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    IF instead of this made up Baxter stuff we were talking about REAL Bible and REAL scripture then ...

    Hmm "Yes the bible is inspired by infinite God" but then "some of it is not worth my time"???

    Question: "Who am I"??
     
    #3 BobRyan, Jun 24, 2006
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  4. BobRyan

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    It is not the Bible.

    And it is "contrary to the Bible" (if one reads it) - so that question is easy to answer.


    That's really easy!!

    It is not the Bible AND it is contrary to the Bible.

    Next.
     
  5. Rooselk

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    Sounds like the vision of this Baxter woman may have been caused by a bad case of indigestion after having fallen asleep reading Dante's Inferno.

    I do not take this stuff seriously unless it has some basis in Scripture. Even then, I have real reservations about most of the 'end times' theology and speculations that are so prevalent and popular today. In the 1970's I tended to take this stuff more seriously but time has since shown the weakness of much of that theology. For instance, thirty years ago Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth was a huge bestselling book. Read that book today and one is struck by just how wrong Mr. Lindsey was in his interpretation of Scripture and end time speculations. Because of that past experience, I have little interest in the current craze over premillennialist theology and the various pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib debates. In my opinion it's more useful that Christians focus their energies on learning to live lives that are pleasing to God. While I firmly believe in the Second Coming of our Lord, I prefer to leave the details and the time-table to God.
     
    #5 Rooselk, Jun 24, 2006
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  6. Jack Lavictoire

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  7. ituttut

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    Subject: How serious do you take end-time prophecies or visions of hell?
    Prophecy of God will happen. But I am not worried about it, however many should be.
    They believe another
    Of course we shouldn't take seriously what cannot be known by any fallen creature, unless scripture can be attested to. This is for those with "itchy ears", every seeking from the minds of fallen humans all of the knowledge they have gained, and the knowledge the people have is that of "con artists" knowing the makeup of humans, is as described by P. T. Barnham. There are an awfully lot of "suckers" in this world, and they will believe just about anything. Give an "oddity", "something mysterious" and unknown to the masses; put a title beside a name and it all must be true, for those people "experienced the phenomenon", or they have studied the 'so called Fathers", or the great theologians, or… and on it goes. Anything, just anything will keep us from what we are looking for. It is all in the Bible of what we can know, and what we will know, if we study His Word as closely as we do the "Books of Man".

    But whatever we believe for our salvation, and what awaits us in the future, it is in His Word, and not from the "wisdom and knowledge" that come from this world. I believe God gave us everything He wishes us to know, and it is in His Book. If we can't find the answer, it is not for us to know.

    We are to believe Christ and His Apostles while He was on earth, and while He is heaven. His last words to all of us on salvation are to Paul, and His last words to Israel are to John.
    Fortune Teller's, and Prognosticators, are not Prophets of God. I can see why you are confused. We today are not living in prophecy or the Law, are that "kingdom that is at hand" that was to come next, after the tribulation. We are living under Grace. We look for the "rapture"

    His Word tells us in Luke 16:16, "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." Know His Word and you will not be fooled. Move from that gospel of the Law and the prophets, and the "kingdom is at hand" of John the Baptist, and the Pentecostal church in Jerusalem to that "spiritual" church of the Gentiles at Antioch of believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved. Those foolish will then not be able to fool you.
     
  8. genesis12

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    If it's in the Bible, you can take it to the bank. If not, take it to the round file.

    BTW, you can round file those videos.
     
    #8 genesis12, Jun 24, 2006
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  9. Link

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    The Bible says despise not prophesyings. That was written to the Thessalonians, who we know had heard some wrong end-times teachings and things of that sort. Maybe there were a lot of people giving false prophecies, too. The tendancy is just to turn super-skeptical. But Paul said to despise not prophesyings and prove all things.

    Some visions are true, and some are not. Also, remember that visions can be full of allegory. Just look at Zechariah and revelation. Will there be literal monsters that sting like scorpions running around? Will there be literal horsemen in the sky? Even literalists recognize that there are a lot of allegories in these visions.
     
  10. ituttut

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    Hello Link. A good point bringing out to prove all things. So this we do of the Prophets under the Law, and those that had the gift of prophecy during the time of the Apostles. Today we know we have no "new" Apostles or any "new" prophecies "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers", Ephesians 4:11. Today we have some Evangelist, some Pastors, and some Teachers, but the offices of an Apostle, or Prophet, those filled with the power of the Holy Spirit to act as such are now dead. I believe we can see this in 3:5, "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. It was not revealed to those Apostles and Prophets until Now, which was that Present time. Those given the power of the Holy Spirit must do it while they live.

    We see as Paul writes some of his first books, I Corinthians the infancy of the church, and also the Thessalonians, it's as though correcting a child. As those in the Body of Christ grow we see by the time Paul writes to the Ephesians the least (tongues) of the "gifts" are no longer mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 above, and probably have now (at that time) ceased. When Paul is speaking of such things he tells us "tongues and prophecies will cease, (I Corinthians 13:8), but the Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers will continue to preach the Love of God.

    By the time we get to Paul's first letter to Timothy we find that prophecy has evidently ended (I Timothy 1:18 and 4:14). If we contend today there are Prophets of the Holy Spirit, we will then need to start trying to identify some Apostles. There are some today that believe they have the "kingdom Pentecostal" power of the Holy Spirit, and there are those that believe by the "laying on of the hands" has been passed on. For all those that believe they have these powers, I urge them all to go to all over the world to the hospitals, nursing homes, mental institutions, and seek out all with physical disabilities, and make them walk again. When they do I believe we will be in that "kingdom to come". But we await the "rapture" first, as God then deals with His people.
     
  11. Link

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    The passage you are talking about says that these gifts are given till we come to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

    Also, the book of Revelation speaks of prophets in the passages about Bablyon. The two witnesses will also prophesy. Paul wished the Corinthians that they come behind in no spiritual gift waiting for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. We see here that Paul apparently believed the Lord's coming was imminent, and that the saints would have the gifts as they waited for the Lrod's coming.



    If you believe that, then why don't you tear I Timothy and all the books written later out of your Bible. If you don't believe they were prophetically inspired, why have them in the canon?

    Also, the fact that Timothy had received a prophecy early on is in no way an argument that the gift had ceased when Paul wrote this letter. Many scholars believe that Revelation was written after I Timothy, at least those who believe in Pauline authorship of I Timothy do. And Revelation is clearly a prophetic-type book.




    I don't see a problem with that. There are many saints gifted to plant new churches and lay foundations. Sometimes they go by the name 'missionary', which comes from a Latin word used, sometimes, to translate the Greek word for apostle in the Vulgate-- well, at least once. historically, many men have been recognized as apostles, like St. Patrick, or Gregory of Armenia for example. They brought the Gospel to new nations. There are those who consider Cyrill and Methodius to be apostles for taking the Gospel to several nations.



    I don't see in the Bible where either Jesus or the apostles did this to the extent you are describing. Why would modern believers?

    It would be rare to find a Pentecotal or Charismatic, especially a Pentecostal, who believes that the kingdom has complete come now. Sure, Jesus said the kingdom is 'in your midst' or 'in you' or however you translate it, but we are still in this evil age, just as the early Christians were when they had spiritual gifts, given through/by the Holy Spirit who is a downpayment, so to speak, of what is to come.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    This is an argument from "the void of what scripture does NOT say". It has no value compared to the argument from 1Cor 12 - the positive and explicit instruction of scripture.
     
  13. ituttut

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    Then you agree the Love of God took over, and we preach His Word.
    But we do not live in prophecy today, and Revelation is prophecy according to John.
    All the Apostles and disciples believed His coming was imminent, and we today believe the same thing. This is the reason we preach Now is the time of salvation, for we just don't know. But as Christ revealed more to Paul over time (Acts 26:16) it became evident the Power given to those to heal, and to just ask would fade and disappear, as scripture proves.
    II Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness". Your suggestion is only for those that wish to remain ignorant of the Grace of God through faith with out a work that has come to us. All before this age of Grace had to do a work. When we know these things, it makes our salvation much more precious.

    Have you ever considered that while you live you can know the joy of your salvation? Moses, David and the rest are as saved as we, but they had to endure until the end, and we don't. Do you know why? Did they know the only name they had to know to be "instantly" saved while they lived? Had Jesus spilled His blood at that time? Their sins were covered, but not taken away until after the Cross.

    We really just do not understand how fortunate we today are to have the peace and joy of our salvation.
    God reveals in His dispensation's what He will. He did not want what He revealed to Paul known until after Damascus Road. He didn't want Moses to know about the "Body of Christ". He didn't want any under the Law and the Prophets to know about the Rapture. If He had, He would have told them.

    We have something better than "tongues", and "prophecies". Are you Gentile? Until Paul you were not allowed into the "inner court", and now we are in the Holy of Holies.
    Most definitely a book of prophecy, and a book to those in prophecy under the Law with required works. As the dispensational gospel of Grace was given to Paul by Christ Jesus in heaven, and it being hidden by God, we know we today are not in prophecy.



    If we contend today there are Prophets of the Holy Spirit, we will then need to start trying to identify some Apostles.


    Jesus handpicked His Apostles, or an Apostle/s had to chose one to be an Apostle. These particular disciples were called Apostles. All Apostles after Pentecost had only to ask, and what ever they willed to be done God would do it. Not so with any today. We see Paul is the last Apostle shown in scripture to have the Power of the Ghost, and when he reached Rome, the seat of the Gentile world, we know Paul no longer had that Power. When John died so did the title of Apostle, and Prophet.

    Teachers as I mentioned are missionaries, that "build" on the foundation of Jesus Christ, either of Peter, or of Paul.
    We are told Jesus did miracles not told, and we can be sure the Apostles did also, but Jesus and His earthly Apostles mission was to preach the "kingdom is at hand" gospel to the Israel, and the "great commission" of repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins. Paul's mission was to preach the "grace commission" of salvation of Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved.


    Those today that say they have the power of the Holy Ghost to heal should do what they claim. I do not see them doing it. They are not Apostles, and they do not have the Power of the Holy Ghost to ask what they will and God will do it. That dispensation did not carry beyond the Apostles.
     
  14. ituttut

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    And Paul says he will show a more perfect way, which we find in chapter 13 for tongues will cease and prophecy is in part, but perfect understanding is coming. Prophecy in part was known, and now abides Faith, Hope, and Charity
     

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