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Featured How should christians treat the saved homosexual?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Matt22:37-39, Apr 12, 2013.

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  1. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    What are you talking about? Again, show us where Scripture says that homosexuality is a sin? The things you mentioned earlier are the names given to people who commit certain sins.

    Nobody is going against a creation ordinance. The church just seems to be so dead set on demonizing homosexuals that we're just flat out hypocritical about how we apply Scripture.

    Is being a heterosexual a sin?



    Separate what issues? Sinners are broken people. And people use more sinful acts and deeds to cope with their brokenness. God has tasked US to point them to HIM as the only method of dealing with the brokenness. And yes that involves preaching the Good News that points them to repentance of the sin they chose to deal with the brokenness over Christ.
     
    #101 Zaac, Apr 14, 2013
  2. Steadfast Fred

    Steadfast Fred Active Member

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    Exactly! And one who is broken will not continue to identify himself as being weak; I.e., "I am a homosexual", "I am a drunkard", "I am a serial killer", etc..

    If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature...old things passed away. He is no longer a homosexual, a drunkard, a serial killer, etc..

    In the natural, when a man dies, we don't say, "there lies Mr. Whitby. He is the father of young Matthew who attends our Church." No, we speak in the past tense, "He was..."

    Likewise, when one is saved, the old has passed away, it is in the past. It is not carried into the present, nor in the future.
     
    #102 Steadfast Fred, Apr 14, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 14, 2013
  3. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    Yall need to stop with all these churchy answers. Yes to be born again is to be a new creation. But yall need to stop talking as though the sinful desires just evaporate. That simply is not the case for the majority.

    In reality, lots of these folks will still struggle.
    We are Saints after we are saved by Christ, but we may still be called sinners because we continue to sin.

    we have got to stop setting up this dichotomy of sin whereby some people feel they don't stand a chance because they still struggle with the sin after coming to Christ.

    I speak to addicts all the time who have struggled after coming to Christ.
     
    #103 Zaac, Apr 14, 2013
  4. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39 New Member

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    excuse me for not being clear...they are LIVING as boyfriend and girlfriend and everyone knows it... and they have no problem letting everyone know it cause CHURCH DISCIPLINE is no longer done anymore, so why should they care?
     
    #104 Matt22:37-39, Apr 15, 2013
  5. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39 New Member

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    RIGHTEOUSDUDE...hmmm, maybe God is speaking to you through me...God's time isn't your time. I feel for you as a father who loves his daughter and wishes the best for her and for her to walk with God.

    I have two boys, now while both boys are good responsible boys, I am pretty sure if not dead sure that my younger son is SAVED...he showed evidence of this at 4 when he accepted Christ and I saw the fruit throughout his life. Now the other one while he accepted Christ too at 3...I have no assurance he is saved...like I said the best son ever, good kid and all...(women fall in love with him cause of his good character and hard work ethic and he is just awesome) but is he saved? I don't know? He lived with his wife before they got married and a few others as well.

    Now he like your daughter is living in sin....and I have never once called him out about living in sin, never...I raised him right and he was raised in the church and Christian school his WHOLE life...If he isn't saved how can I expect to act like it, without God's power in him?......so all I am called to do as a mom and he is a grown man, is to LOVE HIM and his wife and by doing that and being an example, that is what is going to bring him to a closer walk with God saved or not.
     
    #105 Matt22:37-39, Apr 15, 2013
  6. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    Adultery and Fornication are not in the Media Light....

    ...trying to legalize or normalize the sin thereof!

    That is the difference between the church taking a stand against homosexuality and other sin.

    I can't think of any pastor that would not jump on and address the sin of fornication or adultery when discovered within the body he is leading. In fact, if those two sins were pointed out as being a fact and admitted to by the person in a church role of responsibility, they would be asked to step down, and probably not be elevated back to that position until they proved themselves clean and free of that particular sin.

    However, fornication and adultery are not being argued before the Supreme Court to be legalized. And when you think about, if legalized, the US will permit sodomy in a bedroom in your neighborhood.

    I can remember the day when this particular sexual act was forbidden even in straight marriages.

    My, my....how far into the pit of darkness we have slid! :tear: :tear: :tear:
     
    #106 righteousdude2, Apr 15, 2013
  7. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    This Doesn't....

    ....make it right! And even if there are SOME churches allowing this to go on, it is their problem and they will be judged for it. Their doing and allowing these sins does not make it acceptable.

    Let me remind you of a passage from Revelations 2 that is applicable to your example:

    Write this to Thyatira, to the Angel of the church. God’s Son, eyes pouring fire-blaze, standing on feet of furnace-fired bronze, says this:

    “I see everything you’re doing for me. Impressive! The love and the faith, the service and persistence. Yes, very impressive! You get better at it every day. But why do you let that Jezebel who calls herself a prophet mislead my dear servants into Cross-denying, self-indulging religion? I gave her a chance to change her ways, but she has no intention of giving up a career in the god-business. I’m about to lay her low, along with her partners, as they play their sex-and-religion games. The bastard offspring of their idol-whoring I’ll kill. Then every church will know that appearances don’t impress me. I x-ray every motive and make sure you get what’s coming to you. The rest of you Thyatirans, who have nothing to do with this outrage, who scorn this playing around with the Devil that gets paraded as profundity, be assured I’ll not make life any harder for you than it already is. Hold on to the truth you have until I get there. Here’s the reward I have for every conqueror, everyone who keeps at it, refusing to give up: You’ll rule the nations, your Shepherd-King rule as firm as an iron staff, their resistance fragile as clay pots. This was the gift my Father gave me; I pass it along to you—and with it, the Morning Star! Are your ears awake? Listen. Listen!!!"

    If you know of churches allowing such sin, they are not churches that PLEASE God. And remember this. God is longsuffering, but when He turns to judgement, no one will be spared.
     
    #107 righteousdude2, Apr 15, 2013
  8. righteousdude2

    righteousdude2 Well-Known Member
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    Out of love....

    ....and I'm speaking of tough love, I have confronted her. She is a militant homosexual and aggressively in denial. She also believes in spirit guides, confusing her understanding of God with native indian religions.

    She is in the hold of her own errors, and little, other than prayer, is there I can do! But, I haven't sat by and watched and waited. I did as a parent should do. When I saw my child sleeping with vipers, I pointed out the dangers of such practices. Of coruse, she's 40 something, and will do it her way. The problem is, wshe looks to be doing it her way right into hell! :tear:
     
    #108 righteousdude2, Apr 15, 2013
  9. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39 New Member

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    Well for one I agree about the church dealing with known sin but the sad fact is at least all the big churches I have been in and visited or people I know who attend them...they do NOT do anything!...money, numbers, popularity, programs are more important. Might want to check out the statics for yourself.

    And for your info if a married couple (straight) wants to engage in any and I mean any sexual mutual act, then who is to say it is wrong?...it is when one partner pushes their desires unto their partner against their will...you may not agree with a certain act for you and your partner, but not everyone feels the same way. Might want to read the book of Song Of Solomon...and the sexual acts mentioned in there....you might be surprised to say the least.
     
    #109 Matt22:37-39, Apr 15, 2013
  10. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39 New Member

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    well for one I can see what turned her way from God and you with your judgmental attitude...no wonder...duh? This is exactly what I am talking about YOU and other so called Christians are turning MANY way from Jesus rather than bringing them to them...now I feel sorry for her and she needs your LOVE and ACCEPTANCE as a human being and your daughter, like I do to my boys and all you do is JUDGE....poor, poor girl...I'm sorry you don't get it!

    Ever thought about the fact she was never saved in the first place and she doesn't have the POWER to overcome sin?...and if she is saved the way the church has treated her when her lover is nice to her....hmmm, wonder why she choose someone who really LOVED her over you and the church?
     
    #110 Matt22:37-39, Apr 15, 2013
  11. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39 New Member

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    Churches Can’t Discipline Anymore
    Posted on December 5, 2012 by randywhite

    Dr. Randy White

    The almost total abandonment of church discipline has been bemoaned for years now. The call for discipline has sounded forth far and wide, but the implementation of discipline has not occurred.

    Discipline is necessary for two simple reasons. First, it is biblical! Matthew 18 and 1 Timothy 5 give the instruction and guidelines for both member and pastor discipline, respectively. If we are going to be biblical, we simply must discipline. Second, discipline of wayward or backsliding church members simply the loving thing to do. Discipline expresses our love for the Lord, His Word, and His people. Just like a good father would not allow his child to go unpunished, so the church will not allow her members to dishonor the name of the Lord and of the faith.

    The need for church discipline is perhaps at an all-time high since the church at Corinth! Absenteeism alone could become a matter of discipline, since most churches can barely gather together a third of their membership on any given Sunday, and probably less than half over any give year.

    While we can gather together and talk of the need to discipline, I believe there are two reasons that churches cannot effectively discipline their members today. Until these two issues are dealt with, the talk of discipline will be just that: talk.
    Membership Integrity

    Perhaps the most prominent reason why churches cannot discipline today is because membership in their fellowship means absolutely nothing. In the church I pastor, for example, membership means you can vote and serve in leadership. That’s all it means. By any stretch, one would have to say that these two issues are of minuscule importance in a study of Biblical church membership. A study of American church membership, however, would reveal that my church is not alone. I and other pastors have not pressed for a change of thinking about membership. Why not?

    The answer is easy: because I’m not sure we’re ready to go there yet. Sometimes you have to work on a big issue incrementally. This is one that needs work!

    The Baptist denomination, of which I am a part, has a history of solid church membership. Sadly, it is a distant history, but its after-effects stay with us to this day. In fact, anyone who is a Baptist will understand some terms that come from this history, though they probably cannot tell you what the terms mean. For example, a Baptist knows what it means when someone joins a church “by promise of a letter” or simply “by letter.” This term has its roots in solid membership ideals. Today, it is simply a leftover phrase from a forgotten era. (Today’s more accurate terminology would be “promise of an e-mail!”)

    In earlier days, the “letter of recommendation” was given by the church to the member, who would take the letter to a new church when he was ready to join. After a while, the church quit giving letters and the member would join “on promise of a letter.” The letter, in time, came to be a fill-in-the-blank form rather than a real letter of recommendation. Early forms, however, did give places for information about a members attendance record, consistency in giving, service roles, and whether the member was in “good-standing.” Today’s letter (e-mail) usually just says that the person was, indeed, a member of the church. Today’s letter is nothing more than a book-keeping record.

    Not so in the early days. Originally, a person stood before the congregation for a vote to receive the member. It took a motion, a second, discussion, and an approval of the congregation (which would joyfully approve membership of one who had made a clear profession of faith in Christ and did not have a lifestyle that would tarnish the Lord’s name.) Today, the “vote” in most Baptist churches is simply the introduction of the candidate for membership and the words “if you are in favor of receiving this person into membership, say Amen!”

    But even more important than the inflow was the outflow process. Early Baptists believed that if one did not become a member of the congregation without membership approval, they also did not cease to become a member without approval. This simple practice, were it exercised today, would halt “church hopping” and the epidemic rate of running from problems seen among churches today. In other words, this would enable church discipline because membership would mean something!

    Imagine that you are upset with the music or preaching or carpet-color of First Church. In America, you would simply decide to go to Second Church (which presumably has better music, preaching, or carpet-color). You would join Second Church until you became upset with something there, at which time you would “feel led” to move to Third Church. This process continues until many are now members of Fifth to the Second Power Church! But what if you had to go to the church business meeting and ask the congregation for a release from your membership and a letter of recommendation before you left First Church,? The “what if” answer is easy to answer. Here’s the possibly scenario:

    You would first determine that your issue was legitimate before going to the congregation. You would not risk the embarrassment of taking a spurious issue before an entire congregation. You would likely not go to the congregation with a petty personality difference.
    If your issue was legitimate, the congregation could deal with it, and thus make for a more healthy church.
    If your issue was not legitimate, you could deal with your own attitude, knowing you can’t run from the problem.

    With this standard reinstated, the church-hopping would cease almost overnight. My sad guess, however, is that pragmatic, grow-by-any-means churches would not care a cow’s lick if a member of First Church came with no letter of recommendation. Even if one church tightens membership standards, the problem of “the church” is not fixed.

    If entrance and exit standards are raised to the congregational level, then membership means something so that a discipline process can now begin to be developed.
    Biblical Fidelity

    The second problem with church discipline today is that few churches are willing to go by the Biblical instruction for discipline. Regardless of how strongly they claim to be “a people of the Book,” those same people squirm at the thought of Biblical fidelity in church discipline.

    Let me explain. Matthew 18:15-17 gives a three-step process for confronting a brother in sin. It is only a three-step process, which is where the modern church member begins to squirm.

    The three-step process is:

    Go to the person with a one-on-one conversation, seeking repentance or renewal of the relationship.
    Go to the person with two or three others, saying the same thing as was said in the first visit, and seeking the same.
    Go to the congregation with the charges, saying the same thing as in the previous two meetings, and seeking the same result.

    Why does this make modern church-members squirm? Because of its simplicity! I don’t think I know of a church that would be ready to implement this process. Individuals may do the personal visit (far too often they begin with step 2). A group of two or three may even make the follow-up visit (far too often the “charges” have expanded from the original visit, if it was made). After these visits, the only Biblical continuation is the church–not the Pastor, deacons, membership committee, Sunday School class, or any other group that is not the church.

    Going so quickly to the church, while it seems irresponsible and dangerous, is actually a safe-guard against the accused. If a false accusation is given opportunity to have life through ad infinitum discussions, then the accused never gets his day in court, where he can face his accusers. I’ve learned that there is nothing that kills secret agendas like the spotlight! God protects the accused by turning on the spotlight very quickly. In this way, an accuser thinks through his accusation, making sure he is ready to take it to the church quickly and publicly in short order. (Incidentally, in the Old Testament if an accuser made a false accusation, he would receive the punishment due a person guilty of such an accusation).
    Fixing the Problem

    I’m convinced the real discipline problem is a membership and a process problem. If we would begin to treat membership as a covenant obligation, and then treat discipline within the membership with complete Biblical fidelity, then church discipline could be a huge blessing to the church. Let’s head in that direction!
     
    #111 Matt22:37-39, Apr 15, 2013
  12. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    How did Jesus say we should treat others?
     
    #112 Crabtownboy, Apr 15, 2013
  13. Oldtimer

    Oldtimer New Member

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    As I've been reading this thread several things have become apparent. You appear to have a deep seated anger because the church didn't punish your ex-husband. I won't go back and quote the specific examples, as other's can read them, if they wish.

    It is apparent that you are using this issue as the means to judge and condem the church and by extension every member of the body of Christ who does not agree with you. It's sad that you have let your anger spill over so far that it quite apparent in your reply to RD.

    You put JUDGE in capital letters which is probably correct as you have, indeed, JUDGED him.

    How dare you, as a professing Christian (where you are posting is a declaration that you are a member of the body of Christ) question his love for his daughter? How are you following Jesus 2nd commandment when you utter such words to a brother in Christ?

    Your words, to RD, invalidate everything that you've been preaching in this thread. What happened to YOUR Christian love and charity? Where is YOUR compassion for this heart broken father?

    With regards your condemnation of assemblies of members of the body of Christ, those who rightly say a saved homosexual is repentent, and especially with your remarks to RD, I'm reminded of these verses.

    Matthew 7 KJB
    1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

    2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

    3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

    4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

    5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

    :( :tear: :praying:
     
    #113 Oldtimer, Apr 15, 2013
  14. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    It's not illegal to fornicate or commit adultery, at least in most jurisdictions. So why would one need to argue that before the SCOTUS? That is an attempt to legitimize gay marriage, not homosexuality.

    :confused:What is it with the scare tactics? Would you rather the US not permit it by placing cameras and watching folks 24/7? Exactly how is the US gonna stop folks from having sex.

    Sodomy already takes place in a bedroom in your neighborhood. So do adultery and other heterosexual fornications.

    These are the same sorts of statements folks made about Blacks and Jews moving into "your neighborhoods".

    Your neighborhood is ALREADY filled with folks committing sin unrepentantly.

    It may have been "forbidden", but it certainly wasn't stopping anyone. State sodomy laws have essentially been overturned because the government doesn't have the right to tell consenting adults, heterosexual or homosexual, that they can't engage in sodomy.

    And herein lies the Church's problem. We get hung up on issues and put much more of our time and resources in battling issues than we do in sharing the need of a God Who saves.

    If we'd spend more time on preaching the Gospel than on complaining about issues, perhaps more people would be transformed and the issues would become a non-issue.

    When the average person thinks about the Church today, they think child molesting, anti-gay, anti-abortion.

    It is rare that you hear an unchurched person speak of the Church's love and reaching out to all people regardless of what they have done and telling them about a God Who saves.

    we have slid into the pit of darkness because the church has mistaken issues as its commission rather than what God TRULY commissioned us to do.
     
    #114 Zaac, Apr 15, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2013
  15. Oldtimer

    Oldtimer New Member

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    As was the attempt to "legitimize" the murder of unborn children!

    How many babies die EACH DAY in this country because enough Christians did not take a stand against abortion?

    To "legitimize" gay marriage is to CONDONE ie put a stamp of approval on this abomination in the eyes of our Lord.

    Once that's approved, all the other, now illegal, associated sins will demand to be legitimized as well.

    How many people constitute a "marriage"?
    Can animals be included?
    Can children be included?

    No need to argue against anything before the Supreme Court? Babies DIE because we didn't stand totally united in opposition to this form of murder. Which includes withholding care from those who manage to take a breath of life. Which now seems to include withholding care from those who don't have many breaths of life remaining to take.

    We are to take the gospel to the lost. Have we forgotten what else we are supposed to do?

    Matthew 10: KJB
    13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

    14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

    15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

    If the Supreme Court condones this abomination, then should the last two words of the last verse also be equated to "this nation"?
     
    #115 Oldtimer, Apr 15, 2013
  16. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    And the Church fell for the ISSUE rather than stay on message and preach the Gospel and let the Gospel message respond to the issue.

    AGAIN, God has not commissioned the Saints to take a stand against a singular issue. Scripture says 19 Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;...Matt. 28:19-20

    We are to teach obedience to ALL things, not just take a stand against one issue? Why not? Because it obviously gets us off message of preaching the Good News that Jesus saves.

    To legitimize gay marriage is to let unrepentant sinners do what unrepentant sinners are supposed to do. The Church can't stop folks from legitimizing sin. Preach the Gospel that speaks against all sin...all unholiness and let the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit does.

    This is not a battle to be fought by human hands. And we have forgotten this. Perhaps if we'd just preached the Gospel and pointed folks to HIM teaching them to observe all things that He commanded, there wouldn't be the current galvinization against all things Christ.

    Why? Because all we talk about is issues and not Christ.

    So? Preach the Gospel.

    So? Preach the Gospel. God is not surprised by this stuff. Stay focused.

    Babies are dying because the Church is getting abortions at the same rate as lost folks.

    Preach the Gospel and disciple folks. Show them why they shouldn't do this by telling them about the Love of Jesus and extending it to them and I guarantee to you, that the abortion rates would disappear.

    we're too busy taking a stand on issues to take the young lady about to get an abortion by the hand and say "there's another way". Why? Because that takes up too much of our time. We're not willing to commit to her that we're gonna stand beside you and that this pregnancy is not going to ruin your life. we just tell her "don't have an abortion, it's murder, the church is against this issue" and think that's going to do it.

    Where if the Church were being the Church, ladies about to get an abortion could come to the Church and be pointed to Jesus, not abortion, as the solution.

    But we've become too consumed with making our stance against an issue known than we are to actually do what Christ says to do.


    It doesn't matter what the SCOTUS says. God told us the days would get like this. The reason what teh SCOTUS says carries so much weight though is because the Church is too busy taking a stand against an ISSUE rather than preaching the Gospel that points people to Christ and salvation.

    Back when Chick Fil a was in the news, Christians showed in in record numbers to support them because of an issue. If the CHURCH responded that way to preaching the Gospel, you wouldn't have to worry about the issues.

    It's just safer and easier to rale about the issues thanit is for us to be OBEDIENT and preach the Gospel.

    We seemingly don't have a problem standing up in droves and proclaiming to the pro-abortion crowd that abortion is murder.

    But the droves disappear when it's time to go down the street or across town to tell folks about Jesus Christ and that He saves.

    The problem is US not them.
     
    #116 Zaac, Apr 15, 2013
  17. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    So please enlighten us with your evidence.
     
    #117 Revmitchell, Apr 15, 2013
  18. Zaac

    Zaac Well-Known Member

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    Refute it with your own findings. I hope to God that you can because it would be welcome news.

    Not sure how accurate the GuttmacherIsntitute is with it's stats, but they seem to be the one most folks use for abortion statistics along with the CDC..

    http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html


    I believe most of the stats to be found include Catholics as Christians but the face of Christanity around the world is often the Catholic Church. So what folks see them doing they suppose is what the rest of the churches are doing.

     
    #118 Zaac, Apr 15, 2013
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  19. Matt22:37-39

    Matt22:37-39 New Member

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    Sorry OLDTIMER you are wrong, about my divorce...I have issues with the church not doing it's job....it is too legalistic or too liberal.

    I have an issue with HYPOCRISY...and the church picking and choosing which parts of the bible it obeys and which parts it does not.

    The bottom line is the homosexual is not different than anyone else who sins in the Church and the church is to TREAT that person gay or lesbian the way it would anyone else who blatantly sins....like divorce, fornication, etc.

    Nice try though...;)

    as far as RD daughter I stand firm on what I said I've talked to too many people raised in legalistic "christian" homes and the fact that LOVE wasn't shown to them but the LAW...is why many have strayed the way they have...especially the gays.


    Like I said I NEVER ONCE called out my boys sins after they left my home....I did my job raising them, they know right from wrong and it is my job to LOVE them not CONDEMN them!...that is why people came to Christ cause of His love...I pray for him but not as you think...I pray his heart will soften towards his daughter and he loves her and not judges her and her partner....I especially pray for her eyes to be open and she find love some where other than the gay community.....but I doubt it at this point as I feel the damage has already been done...I've seen it too many times
     
    #119 Matt22:37-39, Apr 15, 2013
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  20. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    I do not believe that identifying yourself as Protestant or Catholic means that they name the name of Jesus Christ. I know people who identify as Catholic who haven't set foot in the church since their first communion. I know MANY who attend church who don't even believe in God. I do not think that we can say that 70% of those getting abortions are true Christians. I'd guess the number would be significantly lower than that.
     
    #120 annsni, Apr 15, 2013
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