How Should nonCatholics view the CC

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Apr 5, 2003.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    This is open to both Catholic and non-Catholic posters - but I am particularly interested in the Catholic view. How do Catholics "expect" non-Catholics to regard the teaching and history of the Catholic church Given - the doctrinal differences.

    I will add a post listing some of the doctrinal differences historically - but the point is If you start off by saying that Christian churches do not have to "change doctrine" - then what "should be" their view of the Catholic Church?

    Should they view it as being "in apostacy" as "teaching error" as "introducing error" as ... "fallen?"

    What are non-Cathohlics "supposed to think" of the Catholic church IF the non-Catholics do not first change their view of doctrine?

    Many non-Catholics "solve this problem" by not thinking about it, not talking about it - not addressing it doctrinally.

    Others do address it doctrinally.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. BobRyan

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    This was on the Jack Chick thread - but it summarized the problem here.

    Basically many non-Catholic groups DO find the Catholic church to be in error.

    Many non-Catholics DO accept that the Catholic church slaughtered millions of Christians during the dark ages.

    Many non-Catholics DO think that the prayers to the dead - are simply that - prayers to the dead.

    Many non-Catholics do not think that the Pope is the "Vicar of Christ on earth".

    Many non-Catholics do not consider the Catholic church to have any right of succession at all to the work of Peter.

    Many non-Catholics view the entire system of Purgatory and Indulgences to be pure mythology invented by the Catholic church in the dark ages to fool the masses that were in ignorance. They utterly reject Purgatory AND Indulgences as being pure error - fabrications of the Catholic church.

    Many non-Catholics think that the adoration of Mary as "Queen of Heaven" and "coredemptrix" and prayers to Mary, and Mary's altars to be "worship of Mary" -- pure error.

    Many non-Catholics think that veneration of Mary as "sinless like Christ" is an error invented by the Catholic Church.

    Many non-Catholics view the Catholics priests has having no power at all to turn bread into the Body of Christ, no power at all to absolve sin, no power at all to grant an indulgence. Neither priest nor pope - have anything at all to offer - EXCEPT that they (like any other Christian) might choose to accept salavation and follow Christ.

    In other words - EVEN when they don't express these ideas in as blunt and objectionable a way as Jack Chick - the underlying doctrinal positions continue to utterly reject the Catholic "distinctives" as "false" and "pure error" invented by the Catholic church over time.

    IF you allow non-Catholics to continue to believe their doctrines - and those doctrines utterly reject the salient - key-points of Catholicism's "distinctives" what "conclusions" DO Catholics expect the non-Catholics to "Draw" regarding the Catholic church and "apostacy"??

    I hope some catholic will seriously consider an answer to this question - (it is a simple one but you have to simply admit to the obvious differences and then address the question). Still I am hoping there might be someone that will give it an honest shot.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Matt Black

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    Hmm...difficult one to answer; I write as an ex-Catholic who has two uncles who are priests, and many other Catholic relatives, and whilst I have profound theological disagreements with them (some of which I list below), I acknowledge they have a living, loving relationship with Jesus and also the great debt I owe to Catholic sprituality in my upbringing which has stood me in good stead now I'm an evangelical. So, here's some of my disagreements:-

    I disagree with the Catholic doctrines of Purgatory, transubstantiation, the Sacrifice of the Mass, 'High' sacramentalism generally, prayers to/ for the dead and to Mary, veneration of the BVM, clerical celibacy, clericalism generally, Baptism and quite a bit more.

    But I also disagree with Episcopalians, Orthodox and Lutherans over clericalism and pedobaptism.

    I also disagree with Episcopalians and Presbyterians over church goverment.

    I also disagree with Pentecostals and other charismatics over the Second Blessing/ Baptism in the Spirit and tongues.

    I also disagree with cessationists and dispensationalists who say that the charismata are not for today.

    I disagree with universalists, but I also disagree with those who interpret Jn 14:6 so narrowly as to exclude anyone who doesn't have a crisis of repentance and pray the sinner's prayer having theologically understood all of penal substitutionary atonement, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Trinitarian fomulae and the Christological Definition of Chalcedon and mentally assented to all of the above.

    I disagree with those who insist on pre-millenial tribulation although I acknowledge they may be right.

    I disagree with those who see the Gospel solely in terms of social justice but I also disagree with those who see it devoid of social justice.

    I disagree with those who uncritically support Israel at the expense of the Palestinians.

    I disagree with KJVO inerrantists and literalists.

    Yep- I could go on - there are a lot of Christians I disagree with, and a lot who disagree with me. I am also aware that there will be a lot of doctrinal points that I currently hold that on Judgement Day God will gently but firmly tell me He disagrees with. I thank God that, despite this fact, He still wishes to have fellowship with me and I believe we should extend the same standard of Christian charity and courtesy to those Christians with whom we disagree.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  4. Singer

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    Matt and Bob:

    From the list of topics you address, it should be plain and easy for all to see the things that
    set Christians apart. Then add to that.....the idea of "Do we have to get it all sorted out in our minds before salvation can take plae"? No

    Considering there are thousands of issues facing each believer today, is it even necessary to understand and apply ALL questions that face us. Catholic or Not. I've prayed for direction and wisdom and have been awarded answers and solutions that fly in the face of someone else's deductions.

    As Matt said, we should consider each other's faith with courtesy.
    We can't deny the Holy Spirit's work as it is evidenced in others (including Catholics).
    On the other hand, they cannot deny the same in us. Isn't that the solution to being saved anyhow ? (Having the Son within us). Whosoever has the Son has life. I claim that. I have
    many Catholic friends who give evidence of that same love. Can I argue with God on that point ? I was raised in the Worker's 2x2 Organization and contribute that upbringing as the basis of my reverence to God. Today I am unchurched and even that is grounds for my ridicule.

    Many of us would like to correct each other on doctrinal issues. It makes me wonder if there is even one individual in the world who has the correct mindset on ......let's say 2000 issues.....that confront us as believers. Then again, will God demand that we have this correct mindset when we are face to face with Him ?

    We can't even agree on what the Body of Christ is or how the Trinity works, what day to worship on, was Mary a perpetual virgin, is there One true Church, whether the antichrist is a person or a church or a spirit of rebellion, on and on................

    If we were influenced by the wisdom and direction of others (including internet influence), then we would constantly be in the throes of changing from one church to the other all our lives. Last week the Catholics leveled God's Pure Wisdom upon me and I was expected to accept it as the word from God, this week I've heard how Sabbath Rest is the revelation that God was directing at me, the Worker's 2x2 Organization has constant influence as being the "Way" that Jesus started and expects us to follow.............................etc.

    I say....scrap all that and go back to the beginning and start over.

    "Confess with thy mouth and believe in thy heart that Jesus has risen from the dead and ye shall be saved". Romans 10:9

    Can it be any simpler than that ?
     
  5. WonderingOne

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    Amen to that Singer! In my opinion, the soul that has repented and trusted the Lord Jesus is saved and on the way to heaven, be they Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, LDS, or JW. My question is this - if one has repented and accepted Christ, what part does religious doctrine play in that person's salvation anyway? What does it matter if they were baptized as a child, or if they were predestined for salvation, or they have their own ideas about what heaven will be like? Even the sola scriptura people argue about interpretation. The important thing is to trust in Christ!
     
  6. Abiyah

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    Bob --

    You ask how we view the Roman Catholic Church.
    As far as I am concerned, they have made their
    choices, and this is a free country.

    What I am more concerned about is the fact that
    so many so-called Protestant churches remain
    R.Catholic in practice, completely against the
    Scriptures, following, instead, tradition handed
    down by the RCC.

    I am also concerned about the arrogance of
    occasional R Catholics who call for such
    churches to come back under the umbrella of
    catholicism. At the same time, I can see why
    they do it: there is little difference between some
    of the "Protestant" churches and the RCC in
    practice and belief.

    But mainly, I am concerned, Bob, that you seem
    to start so many threads and write so many posts
    that appear to be contentious, usually specfically
    against Catholics. You appear to be constantly
    attacking them. Why? While this one appears
    somewhat benign, in the past, others seemed so,
    but it was not long before some quite vicious
    attacks began. This is why I usually avoid threads
    where you are writing.
     
  7. Acts 1:8

    Acts 1:8
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    Abiyah,
    Perhaps I can speak for Bob when I say that the "anti-catholics" in here post only because we have a love for the truth and a disgust for falsehood. Why do we hate falshood? Because it leads people astray. It like so many other sins are like viruses - they infect a person, weaken them, maybe even kill them, and then they spread and move on to others. I personally wouldn't waste my time here getting called all sorts of names if I didn't want people to know the truth about Catholicism. Are we perfect? of course not. We all (Catholics and baptists) have one unfortunate thing in common - we are sinners. Is that an excuse? no, but it should certainly humble us. When our human nature gets the best of us, we should all remember that even the best of our righteousness is like dirty rags to God. Fortunately for our sakes, the truth sets us free.
     
  8. Singer

    Singer
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    (Wondering One)

    In my opinion, the soul that has repented and trusted the Lord
    Jesus is saved and on the way to heaven, be they Catholic,
    Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, LDS, or JW. My question is this -
    if one has repented and accepted Christ, what part does religious
    doctrine play in that person's salvation anyway?

    (Singer)

    Wow...I'm in agreement with a banker ??? (Kidding).

    I like your inclusion of LDS, JW etc because many of us also know
    that repentance and acceptance is the key. I know a few spirit
    filled Catholics and have to include my son in law as a spirit filled
    LDS. I've asked, "How can a person trust wrongfully in the Lord?"

    "What part would doctrine play in one's salvation " ?

    A Negative part..... the basis of pride and exclusivism...that's what .

    If a person could not deny his denominational ties without feeling
    spiritual loss.........To Him it is Bondage !!!
     
  9. Singer

    Singer
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    Abie:

    Could you suggest a denomination that is superior to both the
    Catholic and Protestant ?

    *Beware; this is a trick question [​IMG]
     
  10. DanielFive

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    Abiyah, this is an excellent post, I agree with all the points you are making here.

    It is most interesting that everyone seems so keen to constantly discuss the failings of the RCC yet since I came on to the Board I have not seen any of these people address the issue of nominal protestantism.

    Whats the difference in an unsaved Catholic and an unsaved protestant? I believe there are some catholics who are genuinely saved, some who find the way of salvation in spite of erroneous doctrine. Why would these people leave the RC church?

    Many protestant churches are in error, many sit alongside The RCC in the World Council of Churches, many are not preaching the gospel, many are involved in the ecumenical movement, many have unsaved men and women sitting at the Lords Table. Why would or should anyone leave the Catholic Church to fellowship in churches like these.

    Of course there are protestant Churches where the gospel is preached where the membership consists solely of born-again Chistians, where only believers partake in the Lord's table, where Christs people are displaying the fruits of the spirit and living Godly sanctified lives.

    Sadly, these churches, and Christians are extremely hard to find.

    As a RC I could see the faults in the RCC, I had reservations about some of the Catholic doctrines, I had never heard of assurance of salvation, I had no knowledge of OT scripture and how it pointed to the Cross. I never had the blessing of Sunday School teaching, Bible studies, true gospel preaching.

    I read a Catholic Bible for many years before I was saved. I thank our Lord that He brought me into contact with a family who witnessed to me in a loving and caring way. Through their witness I came to Christ after much soul searching and prayer.

    What struck me most about these people was how different they were to the average catholic. I could see a genuine love for the Lord, a heart-felt desire to see others come to Christ and a real burden for the lost.

    They shared the gospel with me, showed me the outworking of the Holy Spirit in their lives, I could see the Lord in them, the evidence of their faith and the peace and joy this brought them. I wanted what they had.

    There was no attacking the RCC, no evidence of hatred for catholics, no one track mind, no talk of the Whore of Babylon, no mention of the antichrist. Why, because they knew these things would drive me away and would put a stumblingblock before me.

    The Lord needs more true Christians like them, people who genuinely know how to let their light shine. People who care for the lost and for those seeking an alternative to catholicism.

    In my opinion threads like this one are started in order to provide a platform for Catholic bashing, sadly there are always those who are only too willing to participate. Lets be honest, the majority of the anti-catholic threads are used as a means of attacking catholics and are regularly frequented by those who would rather display hatred than love. Those who have to prop up their own faith by proving how well they know the Bible and how badly catholics know it. Godly men and women are driven out of here by the ugliness of bigotry.

    This place won't change, only when these people can display a knowledge of Christ to match their knowledge of doctrine will we see a difference.

    Is it any wonder that many catholics having left the Church are driven back into it. There's certainly nothing here that would entice a Catholic to become a Baptist, or a SDA.

    The saddest thing about all this is that these people can't see what they are doing. They are certainly not about the Fathers work.

    2 Peter 5-10

    5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
    6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
    7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
    8 For if these things be in you and abound they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    9 But He that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
    10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give dilligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.


    NB Notice how knowledge by itself (v5) is not the same as the knowledge of Our Lord Jesus Christ.(v8)

    Ephesians 3:19
    And to know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with the fulness of God.

    May the Lord grant each one of us the love of Christ, that by His working in us others may be drawn to Our Lord.

    God Bless

    Enda

    [ April 07, 2003, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: enda ]
     
  11. DanielFive

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    I suppose I better answer the question here.

    How do Catholics expect us to view the RCC in light of its erroneous doctrine?

    We should view it in the same way as we view protestant Churches which are in error.

    If we are genuinely convicted that we must speak out against error, we must speak out against it wherever we find it. We must be consistent, not given to discrimination against any one particular group.

    It would also help if we addressed our concerns to those who TEACH false doctrine rather than attacking those who are held captive by it.
     
  12. 3AngelsMom

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    Singer,

    It is that simple if you keep reading.

    Paul commends us to read the Bible for our faith, in the very next verses following the one you mentioned, and one of the places that I have read DOES say that there is more to it than just 'calling' on His name.

    James 2:14. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    15. If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16. And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    There is more to it than just believing. The devils believe.

    There is a change.

    God Bless
     
  13. Johnv

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    Born of God writes:
    Then perhaps you could demonstrate that by correcting the problmems within your own belief system before going after the belief system of others. Baptist congregations are all guilty of thinking that their method of interpretation and doctrine are the best ways (after all, if we thought something else was better, we'd have changed affiiation). With some exception, I find that Baptists, my own denomination included, have such a "my church is bettern than your church" attitude that it it, imo, an incredibly unchristian attitude. You claim to "love" Catholics, yet hardly a post of yours goes by without taking a pot shot at the RCC. Your condescending post with you and a papal hat is the tip if the iceberg. If you came into my church with a "loving" attitude like that I'd be ashmed of being in the same room as you.

    If you want to pull the speck out of your brother's eye, first remove the log that's in your own.
     
  14. WonderingOne

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    Enda, I would have to respectfully disagree with you on this one, please see my post above. Both Singer and myself have made statements here that would contradict your statement above. But for the record, I will state my belief again:

    I believe that any soul who has repented of their sin and trusted in our Lord Jesus Christ, is worthy to be called Christian, regardless of denomination. What is doctrine anyway, except a human interpretation of the scriptures? I don't really worry about things that have no bearing on my personal salvation. As a Christian, I do my best to follow the teachings of God's word, as it is revealed to me by the Holy Sirit's guidance. I am 54 years old, and so far have not been led by the Spirit to question the personal convictions of other Christians, nor to bash them because of the doctrines they may embrace. The judgement of other Christians is something I leave to God.
     
  15. Abiyah

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    I am sure Bob can speak for himself. I, personally,
    prefer that others do not speak for me.

    If you truly hate lies, fight them with propriety, not
    with actions that are embarrassing for all believers.



    Did our Lord hate falsehood? Did He fight it with
    parody or constant picking? No. He fought
    falsehood with truth. He stood His ground, face to
    face with the instigators of falsehood and treated
    falsehood's victims with compassion. If our Lord
    were standing at your shoulder, would you not be
    embarrassed at the image and the posts you have
    recently put on this board?



    Bluntly, you don't have to be here writing the things
    youu do. Further, you invited the derision you have
    received.

    I have made mistakes on forums myself. Big
    mistakes. I have asked the moderators on such
    boards to remove some of the threads in which I
    made those mistakes, and sometimes, they have.
    Other times, I recognized that I had made a
    mistake but the lesson would be better learned if
    it were left in place and I made a public apology.

    I encourage you to make a similar decision as
    those above. We would all love to forgive and
    forget that it ever happened.
     
  16. Joseph_Botwinick

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    I think Revelation 2:9 pretty much wraps it up. (...synagogue of Satan.)

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  17. Johnv

    Johnv
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    I believe that any soul who has repented of their sin and trusted in our Lord Jesus Christ, is worthy to be called Christian, regardless of denomination.
    Woohoo! Well said!!!

    What is doctrine anyway, except a human interpretation of the scriptures?
    You go!!! Amen!!

    I don't really worry about things that have no bearing on my personal salvation.
    Double Amen!!!

    As a Christian, I do my best to follow the teachings of God's word, as it is revealed to me by the Holy Sirit's guidance.
    May I be more like you!!!

    I am 54 years old, and so far have not been led by the Spirit to question the personal convictions of other Christians, nor to bash them because of the doctrines they may embrace.
    May I REALLY REALLY be more like you!!!

    The judgement of other Christians is something I leave to God.
    Triple Amen!!!


    You took the words right out of my mouth and, more to the point, my heart!! [​IMG]
     
  18. DanielFive

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    WonderingOne,

    You are right please accept my apologies.

    I didn't put this across the way I meant to, I meant to refer to those who start these topics about catholicism, I didn't mean to suggest that this applied to people like yourself and singer, sorry about that.

    I have edited the post to correct this.

    God Bless

    Enda

    [ April 07, 2003, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: enda ]
     
  19. DanielFive

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    Romans 9:3

    For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh.

    Wondering One/John

    IN no way am I claiming to have as great a zeal for lost souls as Paul displays here. But don't you agree that the salvation of our family and friends should be of GREAT CONCERN to us who enjoy the assurance of salvation.

    God Bless

    Enda
     
  20. BobRyan

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    The question is "HOW are non Catholics Supposed to view the Catholic Church" - with primary emphasis on how a Catholic thinks non-Catholics should view them.

    I am not asking if we should consider a Catholic to be a Christian. Some do think of them that way and others do not. I happen to consider them to be Christian. My question is not about Catholics but about the institution and its tradition/teaching/doctrine and acts in history.

    You seem to miss that - from time to time.

    In fact their approach there is very consistent logical and reasonable given the doctrinal starting point of the RCC as the One True Church started by God in the NT. Nothing about that bothers me - since it is in fact a very logical conclusion that follows from the starting point of their doctrine.

    They would have to "not BE Catholic" to start with to draw any another conclusion.

    Do you "really" think it is an "attack" to ask a Catholic HOW they expect non-Catholics to view the institution of the Catholic church IF they start by allowing non-Catholics to have doctrines that differ from the Catholic church?

    Do you "really thinkg it is an attack" the specifics in history that the Catholic church participated in - and the way Protestants accept those historic facts - AND THEN ask Catholics how they expect (ideally that is) non-Catholics to deal with that history?

    It would be like asking Germans how they "expect" non Germans to view the history of Germany and WWII and the holocost.

    For example - should they "expect" non-Germans to say "it never happened" as a way to "be polite"?

    Will Germans say they "expect" non-Germans to see that as a negative point in their history and accept the fact that they utterly reject Nazi principles today and are committed to never allowing such a thing again?

    In fact the RCC does NOT take that second position listed above. So what position WOULD they like to take? What is "their ideal" for how non-Catholics should view that part of their history and their refusal to address it?

    What is the plan? What is THEIR ideal?

    Ahh - but asking them this - for THEIR ideal model for how non-Catholics should view the specifics of Catholicism - "is mean"???

    I guess I forgot that.

    There is no need to join in "vicious attacks" - Why not simply look at the question at take it at face value. What IS the "ideal" view of both Catholic history in the dark ages AND of the CC in terms of the Bible's OWN view of World history - for a Non-Catholic? How would Catholics HAVE non-Catholics view it - IF we start with the assumption that they will allow non-Catholics to retain their doctrinal statements and their acceptance of world history.

    I think it is an obvious question begging for an answer.

    So far, avoided by our Catholic bretheren -

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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