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How Should nonCatholics view the CC

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Apr 5, 2003.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hitler got the trains to run on time.

    Nazi's viewed Hitler in some very positive ways.

    However, what is the view of Hitler IF you don't start from the position of being a Nazi? CAN you really expect that such a starting point would simply CONTINUE to limit itself to "Well, he got the trains to run on time"??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    We all have freewill. No “supposed to think” about us from us. It is something non-Catholics should pray about in their desire to do the will of God.

    Catholics confess Jesus Christ as Savior and Redeemer. We are Christians. We are Children of God and brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of us. Jesus Christ left a teaching church with his authority (the Keys of the Kingdom). This is why Protestants and Catholics are sadly separated. Protestants do not accept this authority. The answer to your question involves the will of God and His plan of salvation.

    We are told to go out and spread the Gospel, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all He has commanded……not just part of the gospel that we think we understand, but all of it. Jesus Christ promised to always be with his church and he has kept His word. Is God present in the world otherwise, and in other ways? Of course. Can He save those who know and have a relationship with him? …..Of course. But, this isn’t His plan of salvation in Holy Scripture. He prayed that we would all be one. Can non-Catholics of be saved?…yes. Is it His will for us not to be one?…..no.

    God Bless
     
  3. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    DH,

    Do you view other Christians as brethren in Christ? Baptists, Prebyterians, Methodists, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, SDA, etc. all of these have doctrines which differ from each other. Some in minor ways, some in major.

    Would they have to change their doctrines to be accepted by you as brothers or sisters?

    The only thing all the above have in common is that they are not Catholic. Yet I'd be willing to bet that you have no problem seeing them as fellow Christians.

    However, when I ask you to see me as a fellow Christian, you seem to think that one of us has to change our beliefs.

    I believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

    I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

    I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

    I believe in One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
    I acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    I look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come.

    That is my faith. It is also my Church's statement of faith said every Sunday at Mass.

    Must I change any of that to be considered a brother in Christ by you?
     
  4. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter New Member

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    That isn't true. The most important thing I have in common with other Christians, is the Gospel of Christ. So I consider some from the churches that you listed to be brothers and sisters in Christ but others I do not because they do not preach the Gospel but instead another gospel which is no gospel at all. Compared to the Gospel of Christ, all other issues are trivial. That's not to say they are not important, but compared to the Gospel of Christ they are trivial.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There are many ways to complain about non-Catholic views of Catholics - I am asking instead for the "IDEAL" from a Catholic perspective.

    And the point is dodged - still.

    So - kindly show the "IDEAL way" that you consider a non-catholic SHOULD view the Catholic institution - the Catholic church given their acceptance of its actions in the dark ages and given their doctrines. What should they view as the "Bible view of History" - where the Bible predicts world history - GIVEN that they find the Catholic church to be in doctrinal error (since obviously they are not Catholics).

    Agreed. But what should non-Catholics think of the Catholic CHURCH as an institution? (in the IDEAL sense). In other words, if non-Catholics do not FIRST change their doctrines - what is the BEST we can expect (from the Catholic POV) that they would think of that institution?

    ALL agree that the ONE TRUE church started by God with ETERNAL promises of His teaching Word and Holy Spirit and promises of salvation - AT SINAI was the Hebrew nation church.

    They too went into apostacy. But that did not leave God without a few among the Jews to carry on the truth and the light of the Gospel - to the World. Peter, Paul, John, etc.

    It was not God's Will that the One True Church of Sinai should fail and go into apostacy. And as you point out it was not God's will that further apostacy in the Christian church should force true followers of Christ out of the organized church and result in millions of Christians killed and tortured by what was supposed to be the harmless and undefiled church. So the Church in exile, in the wilderness, under persecution was born out of the Church in apostacy.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    You just don't like my answer to your question. Once again there is no "ideal" from a Catholic perspective. My answer is elaborated on in my previous post.

    God Bless
     
  7. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter New Member

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    You just don't like my answer to your question. Once again there is no "ideal" from a Catholic perspective. My answer is elaborated on in my previous post.

    God Bless
    </font>[/QUOTE]Your answer is basically that we should just admit we're wrong. If we did that we'd become Catholic. The Catholic church does not require us to become Catholic. So the questions is, how do you expect non-Catholics to view the Catholic church if we can keep our doctrines which oppose the Catholic church?
     
  8. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    I have no idea how you say my answer is for Protestants to just admit they are wrong. I said there is no "ideal from a Catholic perspective". You just won't accept this answer.

    God Bless

    [ April 12, 2003, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
     
  9. Dualhunter

    Dualhunter New Member

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    I have no idea how you say my answer is for Protestants to just admit they are wrong. I said there is no "ideal from a Catholic perspective". You just won't accept this answer.

    God Bless
    </font>[/QUOTE]Just paraphrasing the content of your post on the previous page, the one where you said:

    "We all have freewill. No “supposed to think” about us from us. It is something non-Catholics should pray about in their desire to do the will of God."

    You view assumes that the Catholic church follows God's will. Protestant views are contrary to that belief. For there to be any change on this issue at least one side must admit to being wrong.

    So again the question:

    "What are non-Cathohlics "supposed to think" of the Catholic church IF the non-Catholics do not first change their view of doctrine?"

    Please avoid this sort of response:

    "Many non-Catholics "solve this problem" by not thinking about it, not talking about it - not addressing it doctrinally."
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    your answer was "Catholics are Christian" - and I agree but that does not address the question about the Catholic INSTITUTION,
    -its apostacy,
    -role in history in the dark ages,
    -role in the Bible's view of world history,
    -role in doctrinal errors in Christendom historically.

    You say there "IS no ideal view" that non-Catholics should have of the RCC as an institution.

    Then I assume you are very happy with the conclusions drawn by non-Catholics on the points listed above AND that you agree that the only way they might NOT hold to those views is if the were ALREADY Catholic.

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Bob:
    I don’t believe that the only way not to have this list is to be Catholic. I know many Christians who do not have problems with the things you listed in regard to the Catholic Church. God expects us all to seek the truth in Him and contend earnestly for the faith. Jesus says that His brother and sisters are those who do the will of His Father. Anyone who believes in Him and does the will of God can be saved. Those non-Catholics who erroneously through no fault of their own believe the Catholic Church to be in apostasy are wrong. They do not know. They do not understand what Scripture teaches about the Body of Christ…His church. They do not understand what the Church Jesus established is. They don’t understand the Church is the saints living and dead on earth and in heaven. They don’t understand what the keys to the kingdom are. They don’t understand the authority given by Jesus to bind and to loose. They don’t understand the command given to His Church to teach all He has commanded. The Church is the Body of Christ. Jesus prayed for us to be one. Jesus set it up and gave it His authority. Those who hate the Catholic Church usually only hate what they think the Church is. There are non-Catholics who don't share your sentiments.

    God Bless
     
  12. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    I don’t believe that the only way not to have this list is to be Catholic. I know many Christians who do not have problems with the things you listed in regard to the Catholic Church. God expects us all to seek the truth in Him and contend earnestly for the faith. Jesus says that His brother and sisters are those who do the will of His Father. Anyone who believes in Him and does the will of God can be saved. Those non-Catholics who erroneously through no fault of their own believe the Catholic Church to be in apostasy are wrong. They do not know. They do not understand what Scripture teaches about the Body of Christ…His church. They do not understand what the Church Jesus established is. They don’t understand the Church is the saints living and dead on earth and in heaven. They don’t understand what the keys to the kingdom are. They don’t understand the authority given by Jesus to bind and to loose. They don’t understand the command given to His Church to teach all He has commanded. The Church is the Body of Christ. Jesus set it up and gave it His authority. Jesus prayed for us to be one. Those who hate the Catholic Church usually only hate what they think the Church is.

    There are many non-Catholic Christians who don't share your views about the Catholic Church. So in conclusion, I don't agree that the only way non-Catholic Christians might not hold to those views is if they were already Catholic.

    God Bless

    [ April 14, 2003, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
     
  13. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    the question about the Catholic INSTITUTION,
    -its apostasy,
    -role in history in the dark ages,
    -role in the Bible's view of world history,
    -role in doctrinal errors in Christendom historically.

    You say there "IS no ideal view" that non-Catholics should have of the RCC as an institution.


    Its apostacy..........there was/is none.

    Its role in history in the Dark Ages......... let's see: preserved the Bible as we have it, kept education alive in Church schools, helped the illiterate masses see and remember bible stories and saints lives through paintings and sculpture. Heck, I'll admit to that.

    Its role in the Bible's view of world history.... I don't know what you mean so I wont say anything.

    Its role in doctrinal errors in Christendom......None.
     
  14. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    (Glen Seeker)

    "I believe in One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church"


    (Singer)

    Don't you mean one holy catholic church, Glen ?
    The Catholic Church is a denomination started around 110 AD
    "catholic" on the other hand means universal.
    We are all a part of the catholic (universal) church and are therefore
    one in Christ.

    We are not all a part of the Catholic Church obviously and Jesus
    couldn't have meant us to be. He did ask of the body of Christ to
    be of one mind.....not meaning members of one church.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1.
    Again you return to "Catholics can be Christian too".

    I already said I don't doubt that.

    My point was the instiution and the doctrinal - historical positions/actions of the church as mentioned ab.ve.


    #2. I asked if the RC "ideal" was simply that the non-Catholics "not Think about" the items listed. That banishing the "thought" was the "solution".

    You seem to be going for that as the solution.

    Think about that statement for a minute. Non-Catholics are "not Catholic" in their doctrinal beliefs. That means "catholic doctrine is different" than theirs and it means that "Catholic doctrine is wrong" by defintion IF you start from a non-Catholic doctrinal position.

    This is not rocket science. I am simply asking for a Catholic reponse that takes in the full question being asked.

    Yes they are "not Catholic". That is the starting point. And so your answer to the question - is that they should "not think about those points I listed"? Is that really the "ideal" or are you saying that the "Catholic ideal" is that non-Catholics turn into Catholics before considering the implication of the list I give above?

    I agree that non-Catholics that look at the list I gave above - look at it from a "non-Catholic point of view". They dont hold to "Catholic doctrine but call themselves non-catholic anyway".


    And "again" that is because they "agree not to think about those points"?? or is there some "OTHER WAY" to come to catholic conclusions on those points without actually "being" Catholic?

    You seem to say that those who do not see the Catholic church in some negative light on those points - exist but you don't know how they are doing it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations Glen - you managed to give the answers to the list of points that a non-Catholic would "Expect a Catholic to Give".

    Now what answers would a "catholic reasonably expect a Non-Catholic to give" (ideally) to those same questions??

    Seems like a simple question - but we have yet to see a Catholic pick up the entire question and answer it.

    Wonder why?

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ April 19, 2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  17. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    I would like for the non-Catholic to check his/her sources of information before making judgements about the above points.

    For instance, if one of the sources of information is Hislop's "THE TWO BABYLONS" or Dave Hunt's "A WOMAN RIDES THE BEAST" I would say to that person that those aren't credible sources for any facts.

    Ralph Woodrow who wrote, "BABYLON, MYSTERY RELIGION" based on Hislop's book, has stopped publication of his book because when he searched further into the "facts" given by Hislop, he found that the research was shoddy at best and that many of the "facts" given were pure inventions of the author.

    Dave Hunt, when asked about a discrepancy in numbers he quoted from a document concerning the Spanish Inquisition, replied,

    "Instead of trying to discredit my figures, these critics ought rather to admit that the Spanish Inquisition swallowed up far more than 300,000, whether Llorente said it or not...."

    If these and souces like these are the basis of the accusations against the Church, then I would really suggest that the n-C seek sources which are more reliable.

    [ April 19, 2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Glen Seeker ]
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Glen,

    I have some Catholic sources (such as the Catholic Historian and best selling author - Thomas Bokenkotter).

    Do you have some strongly pro-Protestant historians as "sources" that you recommend on those points?

    Do you "really think" that the most powerful Euoropean empire (by their own admission) that sponsored the inquisition and papal wars against rival papal armies (including the torture and death of one popes own board of cardinals) - was "incapable of the slaughter of millions over a period of centuries"??

    Then when getting to the issue of the Catholic state-church slaughtering what it called "heretics", one must first start with the CAtholic claim that EVEN the Roman Empire failed to control so vast a region, so long and to such a detailed extent as the Papacy.

    In christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    Do I think that the United States was incapable of killing every person of Japanese descent in its territories during WWII? It was. Did it do it? No.

    They were capable therefore they must have done it? What kind of argument is that? It's like trying to hit a target while blindfolded. If you use a shotgun and shoot in every direction then, by golly, you're eventually going to hit the mark someday.

    Oh, yeah, concerning the Inquisition, the BBC did a program on the Spanish Inquisition using the latest documents and research. Their conclusion was that in the 300 years of its existence no more than three to five thousand were executed. I know that that is still a number which should never have been, but it's a far cry from the "millions" claimed by some.
     
  20. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Bob,

    You like this Thomas guy. You seem to quote him and over and over again, and claim that he is speaking for the Church. Ya know, maybe he is accurate, and maybe he isn't. I've never read any of his work. Either way, he is not making any claims for the Catholic Church simply becuase he is Catholic.

    I've read that director Kevin Smith (Dogma, Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back)...but am I going to trust his opinions on Catholic matters? Certainly not. Being Catholic doesn't make you a Catholic spokesperson.

    Use official documents if you are going to say "the Catholic Church claims..."

    God bless,

    Grant
     
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