How should we respond to public sin of public personalities?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dale-c, May 25, 2010.

  1. Dale-c

    Dale-c
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    Most of you should be aware of the Caner controversy discussed in other threads.

    For the sake of this thread, we will assume that all accusations against Caner are true.
    This is NOT to discuss whether they are true. This is to discuss how to handle this if it WERE true.

    Ok, here are the details:

    He claims to have been born in Turkey, he was really born in sweeden.
    He claims to have been a devout muslim, he was in fact very nominal at best.
    He claims to have come to the US as a teen but in fact came to Ohio as a small child.

    He claims to be an expert in islam but in fact knows about as much as the average person knows about Christianity who went to baptist sunday school as a kid but has not been to church since.
    He claims to have learned about the US from Dukes of Hazzard as a child in the early 70s even though the program did not air until several years later.

    He claims to be an apologist who has debated many leaders of other religions yet there is no evidence and it is proven that he has lied about all of those debates.

    He uses these lies to promote his carreer as a public speaker and eventually as the president of a theological seminary.
    He has embellished his resume further his own success.

    Now, assume all of that is true (regardless of what you think really has happened or what will come out in the end)

    What do you think should be done to a person like that?
     
  2. Dale-c

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    By the way, feel free to mention that you do not believe that Caner is guilty of these things. Just tell me how you think the best way for LU to handle this and others who have had him speak etc.
     
  3. StefanM

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    LU needs to conduct a thorough investigation.

    If the allegations are true, he should be dismissed from his position or at minimum censured and possibly demoted.

    If the allegations are untrue, the university should make public the results of the investigation to exonerate him.
     
  4. Tom Bryant

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    I don't think that many of allegations against him are true. But this kind of public pillory of him (not talking about this thread), has no place in the evangelical world. There are people who jump on the band wagon on both sides because they either agree or disagree with Caner's public positions. There are people who have seemingly made it their life's mission to bring him down.

    Personally, I think we have a lot more that we need to be discussing than this sideshow.
     
  5. Dale-c

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    Tom, if these were all true, do you not see them as serious? And if so, do you not think it is something that Liberty should deal with?
     
  6. Tom Bryant

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    And IF they are accurate, LIBERTY ought to do something about it, but we ain't liberty. Most of those yelling the loudest neither have a connection nor desire a connection with liberty.
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    To my mind, the Christian approach IF these charges were true is for Liberty University to quietly and privately confront the man, lay out the evidences, and ask him to tender his resignation, and make no further comments about the controversies from then on.
    This will allow Dr. Caner a graceful exit, and to quietly pick up his life elsewhere, and to deal with his problems before his God.

    IF the allegations were proved unsound, at the least, or untrue, at best, then LU should PUBLICLY throw their support behind Dr. Caner, but ask him to limit his public exposures from thereon.

    Personally, I think ALL Christian public personalities should get off the air and the ethernet, because many are doing more harm to the Name of Christ than good. We all, private or public personalities, preacher or speaker, University presidents or pastors, have some kind of skeleton in the closet which no matter how small or seemingly inconsequential, can be brought out in public by those who hate God and all who name His Name.
     
  8. drfuss

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    There is a long history of ministers (mostly evangelists years ago) embelishing a story or even making up stories to strengthen the points they were trying to make in their sermon. I remember 40 years ago, my minister Father-in-law joking about some popular evangelists (not known nationally) who were "evangelistically speaking" to strengthen their sermon. Their approach was that as long as it promotes the gospel and got prople saved, it was considered okay.

    My point is that Caner has not done something that has been done by some ministers years ago. Of course their "evangelistically speaking" was not recorded.

    I suspect that Caner was doing the same type thing on his resume that he had done preaching using the same retionale.
     
  9. preachinjesus

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    Unfortunately...

    These seem to be the sticking points. Personally I've gotten off planes with only a few hours sleep in the previous days and never forgotten where I was born...or at least where I was told I was born ;) we never really that for sure now do we? :D

    I disagree with this completely. Have you actually read anything by Dr. Caner or are you just reiterating accusations without researching them? You really need to stop taking the word of a pagan Muslim accuser and start checking up on this yourself. His text on Islam is pretty accessible.

    I don't understand how this is a big issue. Maybe we should grant him some grace in trying to use a life experience to make a point. I dunno, maybe we are listening to naysayers too much and not our Christian brother enough.

    Well he is an apologist and he has debated leaders of other religions. I've sat and listened as he has done this. Go find his podcast and check it out. I think this is a completely baseless accusation.

    Maybe on the first point, yes, but the rest I think too many people are trying to go after the guy unnecessarily. I've listed my points above. Really the only one that I see has having any ground is the birthplace and conscription into radical Islam. This is not good, but I doubt it to be "fireable."

    I completely disagree with this. You really need to go and do your own research and not listen to his Muslim accuser. He earned a ThD from University of South Africa (I think, this is off the cuff in an airport) an earned, accredited terminal degree. He received an honorary DMin from Immanuel College or something.

    He's never lied about any of this. The thing is a ThD and PhD are essentially the same degree. What has happened here is a publisher (he's used different publishers and editors for his books) has changed his bio to suit their audience. Its a silly thing really and I don't believe Dr. Caner is complicit here. As for his disappearing, reappearing DMin...I've got nothing to say about that. It doesn't matter anyways its a worthless degree (in that it is both honorary and from an accredited pseudo-seminary.) Sometimes it appears, others it doesn't. That isn't what credentials him to lead a seminary. :)

    Well its not all true. You need to check your facts. You need to read Dr. Caner's statement. You need to do your homework before you accuse.

    I can't speak to hypothetical scenarios when the above material isn't completely true.

    Oh, just to toss this out there. I'm not yelling or speaking harshly. I hope my tone is read as conciliatory and conversational. Around here, and on the other pajamahadeen blogs, it seems this, like so many others, person has been weighed, tried, and found guilty without the necessary due process. Really I'm challenging your points openly, but in a friendly tone. No yelling or glaring here. :thumbs:
     
  10. Dale-c

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    I should point out that I never mentioned his education. By his resumé I just meant his experience as a devout muslim.
    I have no problem with his Thd.

    Also, I have not been getting my info from some pagan muslim either. i have read actual court documents. I have listened to what he has actually said. I have done homework for myself.


    But again, this thread was not meant to discuss the specifics. This thread is what you would do if John Doe really did all of this.

    please keep it on topic.
     
  11. preachinjesus

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    The root of the resume issue has always been the disappearing, reappearing degrees. If I inferred something that was not truly the case I apologize.

    I haven't seen anything to suggest that Dr. Caner wasn't a devout Muslim for a time.

    Well then respond to each of your accusations above. I don't care if you do it here are somewhere else.

    I refuse to be party to someone posting accusations against a Christian brother (because regardless of their veracity he still is our Christian brother) without any recourse in answering them. I'm not trying to be an apologist for Dr. Caner. The good Lord knows I have taken plenty of issue with him and his conduct. But we cannot allow ourselves to be privy to baseless accusations fostered by pagan influences.

    Then don't post specifics and ask what we should do about it. To otherwise seems to spread the seeds of gossip.
     
  12. Rippon

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    Would you please document why you think he was a devout Muslim?Among other things, Caner's lack of familiarity with Islamic basics seem to suggest the opposite.
     
  13. Dr. Bob

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    More true that not, but that's another thread.

    We (especially elders) have a DEEP RESPONSIBILITY to the Church and the purity of the ministry. We ARE our brothers' keeper.

    To say it is not our business, let the church (or school) handle it, is absurd. If we have any contact (and I am staring at a LU Certification in Counseling sheepskin hanging on the study wall) we have a DUTY to be involved.

    This "not involved" attitude sounds pious, but it is a cop out to the command to "Bear one another's burdens". And all of the passages dealing with elders' responsibilities.

    Illustration from my Baptist background: When hyles went off the deep end morally, I got involved in condemning and in working with victims and esp his wife/children. When gray and others were molesting children, I spoke and contributed finances to the "Lambs" who were so hurt - and worked to see prosecution under law for the culprits. In my home town we have a Black Baptist church where the youth pastor molested teens. I didn't say "Not my problem" - it IS my problem. And so on.

    I have already written letters (not emails) about the Caner. At this point asking for a full investigation - unless there are many credible witnesses I will not jump on the pile.

    So to the op - "wait and see" right now. Investigation has just begun.
     
  14. Dale-c

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    Excellent post. That was what I was looking for.
    I have seen plenty of evidence of dishonesty already myself but I don't expect others to just write the guy off without finding out more, but that was never the point of this thread.

    The OP was all about what to do if something like this were true.
    Then what?
    Dr Bob, thanks for the response.

    I personally am not sure how I should respond to this. However, what if I were to need to witness to someone, such as the Mormons that came to my door a while back, and they were to bring up Caner because I am a baptist?
    I can't defend someone's sin because he is a baptist.

    Honesty really matters. Especially those in leadership. Thus the reason why we have the requirements for elders in the Bible.
    The other thing I think is really relevant here is the fact that he has lied to so many people in public settings.
    Public lies require public apologies.

    If this were a private matter then it could be dealt with privately.
     
  15. mcdirector

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    If these things are true, they have to be addressed. I do know that good men (and women) have been maligned in the past in efforts to harm their ministry. I want to remain open minded here, but the evidence appears strong.

    In another thread someone mentioned ministry leaders in his church that are not above reproach. The fact of the matter is that ministry leaders are (and should be) held to a higher standard for obvious reasons. What happens when the "above reproach" doesn't happen tells a lot about the organization.
     
  16. Dale-c

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    When I first got married I was discussing a BB thread with my wife.
    Some people were saying that there are things that are ok for some people but not for a pastor. she agreed but I did not.

    IN this case, lying like this would be wrong for anyone. But if it were a layman, it the consequenses would not be as much.
    Being a leader, if these accusations hold up, then he would be disqualified to be a leader.
     

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