How SHOULD WE View OT LAW With NT Grace?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Sep 14, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    How should Christians, especially we baptists, view the tension between Old/new Covenants?

    Contrasting OT Law with NT Grace?

    law JUST to jewish nation and people, or still applicable towards us today?
     
  2. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    I don’t see any “tension” between the New Testament & the Old Testament......
    Proverbs 28:4
    “They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.”


    The law was the schoolmaster, that brought me to Christ by pointing out how sinful and wicked I was.
    And it continues to be very valuable, in teaching me “God’s mind”(The way He feels about things).
     
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    good view to take on this issue!

    As sometimes think we Christians still feel "obligated' to stay under the law, and live by keeping that, and NOT able to enjoy our 'freedom in Christ!"
     
  4. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    OT Law: It was a curse to mankind. It was a "works based" Law that they had to keep/observe, or they would be stoned/killed.

    NT Grace: It is the Gift of God that we don't have to keep, it keeps us. We are now free from the curse by the atonning blood of the Lamb.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,378
    Likes Received:
    728


    which law?[/COLOR]
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Sep 14, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2011
  6. Old Union Brother

    Old Union Brother
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    740
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen and amen
    .
    Galations:

    3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

    3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
     
  7. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0


    the Law of God that Apostle paul referenced in Colosians that had ALL of its rules and ordinances that were against us forever nailed away in the death of Christ!
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,378
    Likes Received:
    728
    some call that the ceremonial law.

    now what law is Paul speaking of here;
    or...how about the psalmist in psalm 1

    1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

    2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.


    Which law was this??? Is this psalm for you???


    Willis my friend......do you want to reword this???
    Here is a section of the law from leviticus 19.....which verse was a curse to mankind? Willis....I think I know what you mean...but I am looking at what you posted......might want to re-word it a bit...

    Notice most of these are quoted in the NT. Are they a curse for us?
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Sep 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2011
  9. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Well Brother Iconoclast, I do not need to reword what I typed(not being a smart aleck either, sorry if you think I was), and here's the proof(not proof texting either).

    Galatians 3
    1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


    5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


    The Law was a "works based" covenant where the OT Jews had to observe the commandments of God, and if they didn't, they were stoned/killed.

    Here in Leviticus 20 read this passage closely:

    9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

    10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

    11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

    13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

    15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

    16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.


    If anyone does any of these things in this day and time, they will not be killed like they were in OT times. Christ, when He died upon the cross, fulfilled the Law, and ushered in the Grace covenant with His blood. He took our curse, placed it upon Himself, and nailed it to the cross with Him. He was/is our Scapegoat, spoken of in Leviticus 16. Like I stated in earlier posts, gimme Grace over Law any time!! :thumbs: Does this clear things up, Brother??
     
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    that is the reason paul could quote to us that "The just Shall live by faith!"

    As we under Grace live by faith in jesus, and walking in the person/power of His HS indwelling us!
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,378
    Likes Received:
    728
    Brother Willis,
    You correctly went to galatians 3 which is a great passage discussing this topic. I can also agree that anyone trying to be saved by keeping the law perfectly will be found guilty and under its curse.....except for our Lord.

    Now....what I am trying to question is the actual law itself... Willis ...I believe the law is holy, just, and good. The people were blessed to be given the law....:thumbsup:

    What do you take from this passage willis???
    deut4
    7For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?

    8And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? 9Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;
    Do you see what i am getting at Willis??

    hey willis...do you work at that powerplant by Louisa???by the interstate
     
  12. saved by grace

    saved by grace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2010
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    0
    The "law" that Paul is speaking about is the law of Torah especially the law of circumcision which the Jewish Christians were claiming was necessary. A council at Jerusalem ( Acts 15) had to be called because the Judaizers taught that one must be circumcised a Jew before becoming a Christian.

    Paul is not saying we no longer need to keep the moral law to be saved.
    Romans 2:13
    "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified" "

    In Romans 3:27-31 Paul says that we are justified by faith and not by works of the Torah law. Even the Gentiles, who were not circumcised, could be saved. Paul says "Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes of Gentiles also since God is one and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary we uphold the law."

    You need to distinguish between the ceremonial law, and the idea of obligating God that the Jews had then and still have today and the moral law which Christians are still required to keep.

    That is why Paul can say the "observors of the law ( moral law) will be justified" and that is why Jesus says "If you wish to enter life keep the commandments." Matthew 19.

    Paul is teaching the gospel of Christ.
     
  13. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0

    OT Covenant, to the people of isreal, NOT given unto us in the new Covenant per say!
     
  14. JesusFan

    JesusFan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    6,356
    Likes Received:
    0
    paul is stating that ALL of the OT Law though was kept and fulfilled by christ for us, si that we 'died" to its hold over us!

    So we do try NOT to break Will of God by sinning, its just NOT under law, but grace and living by/in the HS!
     
  15. beameup

    beameup
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915
    Likes Received:
    2
    :thumbs::thumbs:
     
  16. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    Agree!!

    Well Brother, the Law never could give eternal life. If it could, Jesus had no business dying for the sins of the world. The Law was our sins on a "billboard", showing us how vile we were/are. The Law was a works based covenant that the Jews had to keep. If they broke one commandment, they were to be stoned, and even God Himself destoyed certain ones who did something He commanded them not to do. Under the Grace Covenant, you have eternal life, via the shed blood of Jesus Christ. You can't keep Grace, Grace keeps you. What I mean by the Law being a curse to the OT Jews, was that when they willfully broke a commandment, they died. Under Grace, when you willfully sin, you die spiritually, but you could be reconciled back to God. The Law was a covenant that pertained to the flesh(fleshly covenant), and the Grace covenant pertains to the soul of man.

    Take a close look at verse nine. It says to keep thy soul diligently. Under Grace, we don't keep our souls, but are kept by the power of God. We don't keep ourselves anymore, but are kept by God. Now I know we are to keep ourselves unspotted from the things of the world, but God is the one who keeps us "in check" when we go too far one way or the other.

    Are you talking about AEP??? I work in Louisa at the hospital there. Have you made deliveries there to AEP before?
     
    #16 convicted1, Sep 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2011
  17. 12strings

    12strings
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,743
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think it should be pointed out that the OT Law was also a covenant of grace. There was obviously a looking forward to a newer covenant (Jeremiah & Ezekiel talk about this)

    But...Adam and Eve in the Garden were the only humans really under a covenant of works. They did not keep it, and so were expelled and God set up a new covenant based on grace, that is based on God keeping his word whether or not people obeyed.

    Gen. 3:15 - God's promise to crush satan stands no matter what any human does.
    Gen. 12 & 15 - God's promises to make Abraham a great nation are unconditional, not based on abrahams obedience.
    God's promise to make David's seed an eternal king are not based on David or his children's obedience.

    Even the Ten Commandments were a grace to the Israelites, not a code that they had to follow perfectly or be rejected by God. Remember the Order of events: 1st God rescued the people from slavery, 2nd he Gave them the law as a gift to them so they would know how to live. (sound familiar?)

    So it is with us today, God saves us not based on works, then he shows us how to live. There are still consequences when we disobey, but our standing in God's covenant is not based on perfect obedience like it was for Adam and Eve.


    SO I would say it's not entirely accurate to say OT = covenant of works and NT = covenant of grace.
     
  18. stilllearning

    stilllearning
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2008
    Messages:
    1,814
    Likes Received:
    2
    Very good post. Thank you.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,378
    Likes Received:
    728
    :thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,378
    Likes Received:
    728
    JF....yes the ot was for the theocracy in Israel. What we were discussing however was the law itself...it was not evil or a curse
     

Share This Page

Loading...