How Some Premils create Mortal Christians

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Oct 1, 2003.

  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Premillers must need create a company ofmortal believers after the catching away(rapture) and before their suppose future 1,000 years in order to support their view of the wickd taking over the millennium at the end.

    Some attempt to create a natiional salvation for Israel in Christ's words in Matt 24:30, - "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

    The passage doesn't say there will be people who repent at the Coming of the Lord andthen enter a supposed future millennium, but rather expressly "mourn".

    Mourn means, a great sorrow and wail, also, in grief.

    This explains occurs at the end of the tibulation. This is the exact same reaction that the wicked in Noah's day experinced as the wrath of God fell on them. When ever a believer shall face a terror at the sight of Chist's coming? Only devils and unbelievers shall experince mourn of this terror.

    2 Thess. 1:7-10 say, "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven wth his mighty angels, in flaming fire (1) taking vengeance on hem that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When (2) he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) IN THAT DAY."

    There seem to be two peoples at His Coming, the righteous - who long wait for His appearing, and therefore rise to met Him in the air. The wicked that hate Him, and will experince all the horrors of His Coming, through the fiery torment.

    Thre will be NO time to repent as the elect rise to meet Him in an "atom" (1/20 of a second). 1 Cor. 15:51-55 says, "We shall all be changed, In a momen, in the twinklig of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be chnaged. For this corruptible must put on incorruptible, and tis mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall ave put on incorruption, and this mortal shall hve put on immortality, then shall be brouht to O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

    It tell us, when Christ comes, ALL Christians shall change into immortality body, means we shall never die again forever and ever.

    1 Cor. 15:50 tells us, NO mortal person shall inherit eternality kingdom.


    Revelation 1:7 uses the same word intepreted mourn in Matthew 24:29-31, refer to the same all-consumating Coming of Christ, saying, "Behold, he cometh wih clouds; and EVERY EYE shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall WAIL(in grief, cut down, mourn) because of him. Even so, Amen."

    Do Premillers believe that "every eye" both of the Jew and Gentile alike, will 'repent and believe' God out of "all kindreds of the earth" at His Coming?


    It tells us, the Christ-rejecting people of the world, Jew and Gentile alike, will wail, mourn, in grief, when they shall see Christ's appearing and are receive the awful judgement on this final day of God's wrath.

    There shall be NO unbeliever left remain on earth AFTER the Coming of Christ by follow the judgment day - Matt 13:39-42; Matt 25:31-33, & 46.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  2. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    You missed 98% of the argument.
    Nobody has a valid position based on ONE
    and only one verse. That is just a sample
    verse.

    BTW, that sample verse also shows that
    the gathering in verse 31 cannot possibly
    refer to the postribulation rapture
    but to a pretribulation rapture. For
    if the Second Coming in Power and Glory is
    the same 24-hour day as the rapture/resurrection,
    then not all will morn -- there will be
    millions of people that will be
    glad to see Jesus showing up: He is
    coming to get them.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed,

    Impossible to prove Matt 24:31 to be "pretrib" rapture, because Christ does not saying He will come again before tribulation. Chrit says, He will come back AFTER tribulation - Matt 24:29 goes context thru verse 30 and 31.

    You aware that most pretribbers in this dicussion forum are not agree with you on Matt 24:31, because they KNOW Matt 24:31 is for posttrib gathering of the Jewish at the Second Coming.

    Because, most pretribbers understand on the context of Matt 24:29-31 talk about Christ shall come again after the tribulation to gathering Jewish together.

    Actually, word. 'elect' is not just for Jews only, also include Gentiles, both Jew and Gentile who believe in Jesus Christ, they are God's elect.

    Ed, you still not follow Hermneutic rule - Intepreting in CONTEXTUALLY. Verse 31 does not separate from verse 29-30.

    I know why, because you hate verse 29 is the most clear truth speak by Jesus Christ, that He is coming again AFTER tribulation. There is no clear verse anywhere context of chapter 24 saying He will come again 'before' tribulation. There is no 'pretrib' in Matthew chapter 24.

    You won't admit to me that Matt 24:29-31 is very clear mention that He is coming again after the Tribulation.


    Ed, you saying Matt 24:31 is pretrib rapture.


    So.......... what happen to Jews AFTER the rapture??????

    Think about it.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    They are part of the population of the physical Millinnial Kingdom of Jesus
    on the physical earth where a physical Jesus
    rules on a physical throne of David.

    I note that at no time 33AD-2003AD has
    a physical Jesus ruled on a physical
    throne of David in a physical Jerusalem
    over some physical Jews (Israeli) --
    so the millinnial kingdom of Jesus has
    not happened, has not started.
    The physical millinnial kingdom of Jesus
    is yet to be: after the pretibulation
    rapture/resurrection/transformation/gathering,
    after the tribulation peiod, after the
    glorious Second Advent of our Blessed
    Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus. Amem?

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    In your eschatological theory, why
    does God drag 300s Million persons into
    the Tribulation Period where they become
    fodder for the antichrist gang of killers
    -- why does God do that to save maybe
    10,000,000 physical Jewish Israelis?

    [​IMG]
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed,

    My point is, you saying, Matt 24:31 is a "pretrib" rapture, not posttrib.

    Then, the question is, who are God's elect?

    You have to prove Matt 24:31 - the gathering together of the elect will be occur BEFORE tribulation according to what Jesus saying. Does Jesus was actually saying he will come back to gathering his elect BEFORE tribulation anywhere in the context of Matthew 24?

    Soldier of Christ
    2 Tim. 2:3 - Amen!
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    DeafPosttrib: "Then, the question is, who are God's elect?"

    God has two elect:
    1. During the Church age (Gentile age)
    - church age born-again Christian elect saints
    2. During the Tribulation period:
    - Jewish Israeli elect saints

    According to 1 Corinthians 10:32
    there are three groups of people in God's eyes:

    1. Jews
    2. Gentiles
    3. Church

    The Church in this present evil age (AKA: Gentile age)
    is made up mostly of gentiles with a few messianic Jews
    -- all will fall away from this world into the arms
    of Jesus at the pretribulation rapture. This is
    a plan of God to save at least one generation of Physical
    Jews (during the Tribulation period).
    During the Tribulation period many Jews will be saved
    by believing that Jesus is their Messiah.
    These are the Jewish Israeli elect saints

    In the Millennial Kingdom will be these three groups:

    1. Jews
    - - Jewish Israeli elect saints
    2. Gentiles
    -lost gentiles who did NOT take the mark of the beast
    3. Church
    - church age born-again Christian elect saints
    (only a few, less than 1,000,000 chosen for special
    service as judges, priests, and kings)
     
  8. npetreley

    npetreley
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    First, there is no tribulation period. Second, God doesn't drag anyone into the great tribulation. The great tribulation occurs because the restrainer is removed, which allows the man of sin to persecute others, primarily Israel.

    In case you haven't noticed, there have been killers and people persecuting Christians for almost 2000 years and persecuting Jews far longer. (Worse, there have been people who call themselves Christians who persecute others, often Jews.) Christians have been stoned, dismembered, shot, burned at the stake, crucified upside down, and have endured atrocities. There's nothing different about that than what happens during the great tribulation, except perhaps a matter of degree, and a matter of focus.

    In case you haven't noticed, God has often (if not always) used the persecution of His own to glorify Himself with their faith and endurance. There's nothing different about that than what will happen during the great tribulation. That's why scripture exhorts the saints to have patience and endurance during the great tribulation - as a testimony of our faith.

    Jesus returns immediately after the great tribulation to rescue those who are persecuted, and to pour out His vengeance on those who persecuted the saints. That's what we are spared. It makes perfect sense to leave us on earth to be a testimony for Him when there is persucution. It makes no sense to leave us on earth when He pours out His wrath on those who hate Him and persecute us.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    Npetreley: "First, there is no tribulation period."

    Tell it to the boss:

    Matthew 24:21-22 (nKJV):

    For then there will be great tribulation,
    such as has not been since the beginning of
    the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be
    .
    22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh
    would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

    People who make the great tribulation period to be
    the whole of history from 33AD to 2003AD belittle the meaning
    of the phrase "great tribulation" and call Jesus a liar.

    Npetreley: "In case you haven't noticed, there have been killers
    and people persecuting Christians for almost 2000 years
    and persecuting Jews far longer."

    My generic "five tribualtions" notes that.

    Npetreley: "There's nothing different about that than what happens
    during the great tribulation, except perhaps a matter of degree
    , and a matter of focus."

    Alright, here is a change in focus:
    Some 40-60 million Christains have been martyred.
    All the Christians will be gone at the first sound
    of the last trumpet soundind the start of the tribualtion period.
    Left will be some 10 million Jews and maybe 5,500 Million people
    including false Christians (1,500 Million) and others (4,000 Million).
    about 1/3 of these will be slain at the sound of the 6th trumpet
    (2,000 million). Yep, change of degree, big time.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Ed,

    There is no difference between 'tribulation' and 'great tribulation' of Matt 24:21. Both are same definition.

    You claim, there are 5 different types of tribulation.

    The Bible does not support your logical.

    The Bible does not promise us that we will escape from tribulation. The purpose that the Church always face tribulation thoughout centuries to today, because Christ suffed on the cross, so, we should follow Christ's example of 2 Peter 2:21.

    Jesus tells us, that we shall suffer tribulation, but be joyful, because He already overcome it - John 16:33.

    Paul tells us, that we must go through MUCH tribulation - Acts 14:22. Because 1 Thess 3:3-4 tell us that we are appointed for tribulation.

    There is NO difference between Jew and Gentile, both are same in the Lord's sight - Romans 3:9; and 10:12

    Dispensationalism often use 1 Cor. 10:32 to prove there are different groups to support dispensationalism dotrine.

    Firstly, you have to read in context of 1 Corinthians 10:14-33, Paul talked about idolatry, that hecommands us tha we must flee from t. Also, he discus about people's custom, they way the observe like as ritual service. He told us, that we do not offend their custom and tradition - 1 Cor. 10:32 context with 27-31 speak about worshipping with practical in the kind of religious ritual. Verse 32 does nothing with dispensationaism, Paul was talking about not offend to ANY people on their custom. Same with Colossians 2:16 tells, that we do not offend any person, in any manner what person observe to worshipping with ritual practice.

    While you discuss 1 Cor. 10:32, please look to 1 Cor. 10:17 ays, "For we being MANY are ONE bread, and ONE body: for we are ALL partakers of that ONE bread." Paul tells either both many Jews and Gentiles, both are unity into ONE Body, that is the doctrine of the Church. Church is the body of Christ.

    1 Cor. 10:32 - Paul tried to tell them, that they do not offend to ANY person, but to respect them. But, Paul commands us that we must flee from idolatry, and do not practical on it.

    1 Cor. 10:14-32 have do NOTHING with Dispensationaism.

    Understand?

    Soldier of Christ
    2 Tim. 2:3 - Amen!

    [​IMG]
     
  11. KenH

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    And why does one Christian wish to belittle another Christian with a comment like that and accuse them of calling Jesus a liar? To disagree over eschatology does not mean that one is calling Jesus a liar.

    That is one of my main problems with premillennialists, especially dispensational ones, in that they accuse, for practical purposes, those that disagree with them of being evil.

    What if you are wrong, Ed? If you are wrong does that mean you are calling Jesus a liar?
     
  12. Me2

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    the two tribulations are different in scope and intensity.

    the first tribulation is a trial of faith focusing on conquering the works of the flesh. it occurs between the child and young man stage. Jesus is refining your faith as silver.

    this can coincide with the tabernacle sanctification and the capability of entering into the first veil of the sanctuary. those who accomplish this level of undertanding can profess Jesus as their Lord.

    the second tribulation is called the great tribulation and it concerns trying your faith with the focus of comprehending the character and nature of Jesus. accomplishing this faith level is accompanied with the Proclamation that Jesus is God. and his nature is unconditional love for ALL.

    this tribulation can coincide again with the tabernacle and the veil of the Holy of holies.
    where man comes face to face with God himself. this tribulation is between the young man nnd the father stage. in this stage your comprehension of faith is referred to as being refined as Gold.

    this is not in anyway associated with eschatology.
    this occurs in the believers life as they progress through the process of Sanctification.

    Me2
     
  13. Frogman

    Frogman
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    I have never seen a discussion of this topic that I could understand either side :D That is my fault.

    I am currently involved in a discussion on another forum and I asked the question there that I will ask here. It is a simple question.

    First let me say to you that I am premilennial and dispensationalist.

    The argument against this view on the other forum that was thought to corner me and force my concession was that Christ is now on His throne, the church is the kingdom. This argument is supported from:
    The argument continues to say then the throne of David [the physical throne set in Jerusalem] was at the first the throne of Christ and was given to David.

    Now let's go to Luke 1.32:

    My questions:
    </font>
    • Who shall be great?</font>
    • Whose throne is He given?</font>
    • When was David's throne in Heaven?</font>
    Ok, that is three questions, but they can be combined into one.

    Seeking an answer.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  14. npetreley

    npetreley
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    I think you already know that I'm not saying that the great tribulation started at 33AD. What I said was that the saints have always suffered tribulation and of the most horrible kinds, and that tribulation actually glorifies God. So it makes no sense to think that we will be spared the great tribulation, since the same principles apply to both the great tribulation and previous tribluation. That's why it should come as no surprise to you that God leaves His elect on earth through the great tribulation.

    Well put. They are your generic five tribulations. All you've presented so far is speculation based on snippets of scripture. Let me know when you get a plain statement that there are five tribulations inserted into scripture. Get those insertions accepted as canon, and then I'll consider believing they're true.
     
  15. Frogman

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    I guess everybody is waiting to see? ;)

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Frogman,

    I will answer to your question tomorrow, because tomorrow is my day off. I will have more time to discuss on David's Throne.

    Soldier of Christ
    2 Tim. 2:3 - Amen!
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    ------------------------------------
    Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the
    Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto
    him the throne of his father David:
    ----------------------------------------------

    My questions:
    Who shall be great?"
    Jesus, the Messiah.

    Frogman: "Whose throne is He given?"
    The physical throne of the physical King David
    (he ruled Israel about 1000BC).

    Frogman: "When was David's throne in Heaven?"

    /ed checks with Mayflower ;) /
    Haven't found a verse about it yet.

    During the physical Millennial Kingdom of Jesus,
    the Christ, Jesus will physically rule
    a physcial world from
    a physical throne of David in a Physical Jerusalem.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Ed Edwards

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    DeafPosttrib: "You claim, there are 5 different types of tribulation.

    The Bible does not support your logical."

    That should be (s/b): The Bible does not support your logic."

    Interesting [​IMG] You put me in a damned damed if you do,
    damned if you don't situation. If i do not give my supporting
    Bible documentation; then you say it is not logical.
    If i give my supporting Bible documentation; then you
    say it is not simple.

    Sorry, I'm not going to play your game.
    But i'm still the old easy ed: which 1 of the 2 would
    you rather me to do for you?
    See, there is no reason to try to please someone who
    cannot ever be pleased. God has made me the steward of
    my time, and i can't be wasting it all on someone who
    wants to play "damned if/damned if not" games.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Ed Edwards

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    -------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
    belittle the meaning of the phrase
    "great tribulation" and call Jesus a liar.
    ------------------------------------

    KenH: "And why does one Christian wish to belittle another
    Christian with a comment like that and accuse them
    of calling Jesus a liar? To disagree over eschatology
    does not mean that one is calling Jesus a liar."

    1. Please quote my whole sentence OR don't misquote
    me by ommission. Thank you.

    Here is what i said:
    //People who make the great tribulation period to be
    the whole of history from 33AD to 2003AD belittle the meaning
    of the phrase "great tribulation" and call Jesus a liar.//

    I guess, because two people didn't seem to understand this,
    that i'd better reword:

    People (unlike those posting on this topic, like Catholics and
    Mormons) who make the great tribulation period to be
    the whole of history from 33AD to 2003AD, belittle the meaning
    of the phrase "great tribulation" and call Jesus a liar.

    2. I'm probably so liberal and tolerant that i'll get
    kicked off the BB, but i have my limit.
    I can understand how some one can read Matthew 24:28-31
    and believe the gathering is AFTER the Great Tribulation
    Period -- in error of ignoring context, but not heresy.
    I understand how people posting on this topic
    comprehend a difference between "tribulation" and
    the "great tribulation" of Matthe 24:21. Skipping out
    on the 70th week of Daniel - unfortunate but not heresy.

    But to deny the saying of Jesus in Matthew 24:21-33
    that there will be a time of great tribulation
    unlike any in the world up to that time or after that
    time -- to deny it by saying it is all the possible time
    from 33AD to 2003 -- sorry, that is heresy, blasphemy,
    or something more than mere divergence of opinion.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    I am not play game with you. I am serious. I just do not agree with your interpeting the scripture.

    We have many different kinds of tribulations since Early Church to tday, some are terrible, some are light, some are heavy, yet, the definition word of tribulation is always same.

    I believe Matt 24:21 will be a future event that will be much worser than all any kinds of tribulations in the past. I believe Matt 24:21 will be worse by follow Antichrist to be revealed and to persecute against Christians, many Christians will be killed for refuse worship Antichrist.

    Christ will not come till after we go through tribulations first - Matt 24:29-31 and Acts 14:22. We are now in tribulations.

    Great Tribulation shall be begin by follow the reveal of Antichrist, there shall be much increase persecution upon Christians more worser.

    Again, I emphasis that the Bible does not promise us that we shall escape from tribulation, because we are appoint for it - 1 Thess 3:3-4.

    Often, I hear they say, tribulation is same as wrath. That is not correct.

    We are not appoint for wrath - 1 Thess 5:9, because we received salvation through Jesus Christ. Wrath is for all rejecting- Christ people only, send them to lake of fire for everlasting punishment without have salvation.

    Tribulation is for trial, persecute, test, sufferins. Didn't you know that Jesus already experince tribulation? By through crucified. We should follow Christ's example of his suffering - 1 Peter 2:21.

    Hey, Frogman, I still will answer your question on King's Trone. Be patience with me,I will answer it tomorrow.

    Soldier of Christ
    2 Tim 2:3 - Amen!
     

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