How the kingdom grows over time.Jonathan Edwards

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Mar 13, 2014.

  1. Iconoclast

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    The question is often asked how can we be in the Kingdom now? Then the person asking looks at the newspaper and says..see..it cannot be so.Here is how several view this ..from Jonathan Edwards works Vol1.


    I added the numbers for easier discussion points...here is how J.Edwards thought on kingdom growth...pick out some points and offer either scriptural support..or scriptural correction...

    1]. That the state of things which is attained by the events of this period, is what is so often called the kingdom of heaven, or the kingdom of God. We very often read in the New Testament of the kingdom of heaven. John the Baptist preached, that the kingdom of heaven was at hand; and so did Christ and his disciples after him; referring to something that the Jews in those days expected, and called by that name. They seem to have taken their expectation and the name chiefly from that prophecy of Daniel in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, Dan. ii. 44. “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom;” together with chap. vii. 13, 14.

    2]Now this kingdom of heaven is that evangelical state of things in the church, and in the world, wherein consists the success of Christ’s redemption in this period.

    3]There had been often great kingdoms set up before; as the Babylonish, the Persian, the Grecian, and the Roman monarchies. But Christ came to set up the last, which is not an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly, John xviii. 36. “My kingdom is not of this world.” This is the kingdom of which Christ speaks. Luke xxii. 29. “My Father hath appointed to me a kingdom.”

    4]This kingdom began soon after Christ’s resurrection, and is accomplished in various steps from that time to the end of the world. So 1 Cor. xv. 50. “This I say, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.”


    5] The times of this period, for the most part, are in the Old Testament called the latter days. We often, in the prophets of the Old Testament, read of things that should come to pass in the latter days, and sometimes in the last days, evidently referring to gospel times.

    6] The whole time of this period is sometimes in Scripture called the end of the world, 1 Cor. x. 11. “Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples; and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.” And the apostle, Heb. ix. 26. in this expression of the end of the world, means the whole of the gospel-day, from the birth of Christ to the day of judgment: “But now once in the end of the world, hath he appeared, to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.632632 Heb. ix. 26. “


    7]This space of time may well be called the end of the world; for this whole time is taken up in bringing things to their great end and issue. Before, things were in a kind of preparatory state; but now they are in a finishing state.


    8] An end is now brought to the former carnal state of things, which by degrees vanishes, and a spiritual state begins to be established more and more.

    9]Particularly, an end is brought to the former state of the church, which may be called its worldly state, in which it was subject to carnal ordinances, and the rudiments of the world.

    10]Then an end is brought to the Jewish commonwealth, in the destruction of their city and country.



    11]After that, an end is brought to the old heathen empire in Constantine’s time. The next step is the finishing of Satan’s visible kingdom in the world, upon the fall of Antichrist, and the calling of the Jews.


    14] And last will come the destruction of the outward frame of the world itself, at the conclusion of the day of judgment.

    15]Heaven and earth began to shake, in order to a dissolution, according to the prophecy of Haggai, before Christ came, that so only those things which cannot be shaken may remain, i.e. that those things which are to come to an end may terminate, and that only those things may remain which are to remain eternally.

    16]In the first place, the carnal ordinances of the Jewish worship came to an end, in order to make way for the establishment of that spiritual worship, which is to endure to all eternity: John iv. 21. “Jesus saith unto the woman, Believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.” Ver. 23. “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.”

    17]This is one instance of the temporary world coming to an end, and the eternal world beginning.

    18]And then, the outward temple and the city Jerusalem came to an end, to give place to the setting up of the spiritual temple and city, which are to last for ever.

    19] Another instance of removing those things which are ready to vanish away, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain, is the bringing to an end the old heathen empire, to make way for the empire of Christ, which shall last to all eternity.


    20]After that, upon the fall of Antichrist, an end is put to Satan’s visible kingdom on earth, to establish Christ’s kingdom, which is an eternal kingdom; as the prophet Daniel says, chap. vii. 27. “And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him;” which is another instance of the ending of the temporary world, and the beginning of the eternal one.


    21]And then, lastly, the very frame of this corruptible world shall come to an end, to make way for the church to dwell in another dwelling-place, which shall last to eternity.

    22]Because the world is thus coming to an end by various steps and degrees, the apostle perhaps uses this expression, that (not the end but) the ends of the world are come on us; as though the world has several endings one after another.—The gospel-dispensation is a finishing state:

    23] it is all spent in finishing things off which before had been preparing, or abolishing things which before had stood. It is all spent as it were in summing things up, and bringing them to their issues, and their proper fulfilment. Now all the old types are fulfilled, and the predictions of all the prophets from the beginning of the world shall be accomplished in this period.
    24]That state of things which is attained in the events of this period is called a new heaven and a new earth: aIsa. lxv. 17, 18. “For behold, I create new heavens, and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be you glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.” And chap. lxvi. 22. “For as the new heavens and the new earth which I make, shall remain before me; so shall your seed and your name remain.”584. See also chap. li. 16.



    25]As the former state of things, or the old world, by one step after another, is through this period coming to an end; so the new state of things, or the new world, which is a spiritual world, is beginning and setting up. In consequence of each of these finishings of the old state of things, there is the beginning of a new and eternal state.


    26] So that which accompanied the destruction of the literal Jerusalem, was an establishing of the spiritual. So with respect to the destruction of the old heathen empire, and all the other endings of the old state of things; till at length the very outward frame of the world itself shall come to an end; and the church shall dwell in heaven, which will be a new habitation. Then shall the utmost be accomplished that is meant by the new heavens and the new earth. (See Rev. xxi. 1.)
    see part two---
     
    #1 Iconoclast, Mar 13, 2014
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  2. Iconoclast

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    part 2----

    27]Now this kingdom of heaven is that evangelical state of things in the church, and in the world, wherein consists the success of Christ’s redemption in this period. There had been often great kingdoms set up before; as the Babylonish, the Persian, the Grecian, and the Roman monarchies.


    But Christ came to set up the last, which is not an earthly kingdom, but a heavenly, John xviii. 36. “My kingdom is not of this world.” This is the kingdom of which Christ speaks. Luke xxii. 29. “My Father hath appointed to me a kingdom.” This kingdom began soon after Christ’s resurrection, and is accomplished in various steps from that time to the end of the world

    28]1. The setting up of the kingdom of Christ is chiefly accomplished by four successive great events, each of which is in Scripture called Christ’s coming in his kingdom. The first is Christ’s appearing in those wonderful dispensations of providence in the apostles’ days, in setting up his kingdom, and destroying its enemies, which ended in the destruction of Jerusalem. This is called Christ’s coming in his kingdom,Matt. xvi. 28.“Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (And Matt. xxiv.)

    29]The second is that which was accomplished in Constantine’s time, in the destruction of the heathen Roman empire. This is represented as Christ’s coming, and is compared to his coming to judgment, (Rev. vi. at the latter end.)

    30]The third is that which is to be accomplished at the destruction of Antichrist. This also is represented as Christ’s coming in his kingdom in the 7th chapter of Daniel, and in other places

    31]The fourth and last is his coming to the last judgment; which is the event principally signified in Scripture by Christ’s coming in his kingdom.

    Offer scriptural thoughts for or against.....Do not post...."I think that" unless you offer scripture showing why you think anything!
     
  3. kyredneck

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    Cool. You put some real effort into this. Thanks. Haven't perused this yet but appears I mostly agree with Edwards, not totally though (but then there's no one that I agree with 100%).

    I like his recognition of the term 'coming in His kingdom', though probably not in agreement with his timeline of it, but definitely agree that there was a ‘lag’ between Christ being anointed king and actually becoming king, as displayed in the huge type contained in the conflict between the House of Saul and the House of David. Before David became king in reality, the House of Saul first had to be vanquished. Before Christ in His church could receive the vineyard, the original keepers first had to be expelled.
     
    #3 kyredneck, Mar 14, 2014
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  4. Iconoclast

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    Hello Kyred

    I do not totally agree with the timeline also.This was one man's view which he offers some support for. This demonstrates how a Christian can view the Kingdom.He shows the growth over time.I guess he did not get his copy of Late great Planet Earth. Lol
    I do not follow when he goes past 70ad. I DO LIKE HOW HE SHOWS THE CHANGEIN POINTS 1 TO 10
     
    #4 Iconoclast, Mar 14, 2014
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  5. kyredneck

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    Yes, me too. You jumped from #11 to #14. Does 11 contain 12 & 13?

    OK, I read a little closer and I like this articulation:

    28]1. The setting up of the kingdom of Christ is chiefly accomplished by four successive great events, each of which is in Scripture called Christ’s coming in his kingdom. The first is Christ’s appearing in those wonderful dispensations of providence in the apostles’ days, in setting up his kingdom, and destroying its enemies, which ended in the destruction of Jerusalem. This is called Christ’s coming in his kingdom,Matt. xvi. 28.“Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (And Matt. xxiv.)

    29]The second is that which was accomplished in Constantine’s time, in the destruction of the heathen Roman empire. This is represented as Christ’s coming, and is compared to his coming to judgment, (Rev. vi. at the latter end.)

    30]The third is that which is to be accomplished at the destruction of Antichrist. This also is represented as Christ’s coming in his kingdom in the 7th chapter of Daniel, and in other places

    31]The fourth and last is his coming to the last judgment; which is the event principally signified in Scripture by Christ’s coming in his kingdom.

    What is he calling Antichrist? Do you know?
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    I have to check and see if I deleted something...or was tired when I was doing this...lol

    He does not look to name an Antichrist. ...he keeps saying Jesus destroys him...afterwards... I will read more and double check...my memory is suspect on this...lol....

    I enjoy considering passages in the ot.that describe the saints in the Kingdom.like Isa.51:16.

    There are many ot prophecies that would guide us in our sanctification as they describe the effects that the Spirit works in the redeemed.
     
  7. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    I don't suppose either of you realize Edwards was a dispensationalist, hm?

     
  8. kyredneck

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    His beats Darbyism hands down.

    Actually he's considered to be post mil, I think.
     
    #8 kyredneck, Mar 14, 2014
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  9. kyredneck

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    I'm wondering how he identifies the seven heads of the beast in Rev, but don't bother too much, if I wanted to know that bad I'd get his book(s).
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    Here on pg265. He says

    1 first persecution by Jewish religious leaders.

    2.the second.....at the time of Constantine....by the heathen

    3.the Antichrist

    4. By gog and magog

    He sees it this way...Each of the comings of Christ is accompanied by a terrible destruction of the wicked.and the enemies of the church. GOG and Magog he saw as the final destruction of the ungodly.
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    The scripture uses the term dispensation. ...In Eph......but it is not speaking of dispensationalism. Most consider him postmill...Some amill claim him.

    Dcon......With any teacher ..... I look for the overall point being offered.....I do not equate them to Apostolic teaching. The benefit is working through what they offer.....looking at the verses.

    Then asking the questions.....what if this is correct....what does it mean to me now....how would it change how I conduct myself......

    I want to examine any valid view....:thumbs:
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    Almost everyone sees that as Rome...Everyview that I have seen does this
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    Edwards work shows many of the main threads in redemptive history that link all 66 books together. We do not have to agree with each point he offers...

    Once this idea and teaching is offered as a base.....it can be used or modified by other verses that come into play.
     
  14. kyredneck

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    No. Not everyone. I hold to a 'Historicist framework' that I know some futurists also agree with:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2078506#post2078506

    In this framework Rome is the sixth head, the 'epoch' in which the book was written.
     
    #14 kyredneck, Mar 14, 2014
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  15. kyredneck

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    I like that, the bible is a multi faceted gem with a myriad of 'redemptive threads' contained within it, and the book of Revelation is it's capstone! I may actually purchase some of Edward's works. Which would you recommend? The Historicist framework also offers a chronological 'base' to work from.
     
  16. Iconoclast

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    Many of his works are online....Dcon might have given one of the links.....In the truck I have A history of the work of Redemption. .....At home I have the two volume set of his works..
    This study helped me escape the straight jacket of wooden literal study methods that hold people back from a good dealof teaching.

    I will post links.....I think cost had his works free online,

    also....His idea of the Antichrist seems to be Satan working through Rome and Islam.....opposing the church.I do not accept this
     
    #16 Iconoclast, Mar 14, 2014
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  17. Reformed

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    Forgive my lack of scripture references. I am in Florida on vacation and I'm on my smartphone.

    I have always held to the view that the kingdom of God is one eternal kingdom revealed in different ways. Even though men and angels are in rebellion against God, and all creation is under the curse, God is no less in charge. Rebellion can exist in a kingdom without the kingdom, and it's sovereign, falling into disillusion.

    Old Covenant Israel and the New Covenant Church may view the kingdom differently, but it is still the same kingdom. If you look through a crystal one way the light will appear different than if you look through it another way. So it is with the kingdom of God.

    God's kingdom is represented on earth through the work of the Spirit in the Church and in the lives of the saints. It will be perfected at Christ's second coming. But it is still one kingdom that has always existed.
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    Reformed

    In light of the fact that you usually offer many fine verses on any topic being discussed and have built up some BB currency....a special indulgence will be granted as you are having to suffer under the Florida sun while others are still battling winter. We will however keep an eye on you...:thumbs:

    perhaps you are thinking of verses like in psalm 148;


    148 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights.

    2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

    3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

    4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.

    5 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded, and they were created.

    6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass
    .

    7 Praise the Lord from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:

    8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapours; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

    9 Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars:

    10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl:

    11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth:

    12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children:

    13 Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.

    14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the Lord.
    or even the fine section in Dan4;
    34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

    35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

    36 At the same time my reason returned unto me;

    YES....11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

    12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

    13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

    14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.


    39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

    40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Yes again. I have been pressing to look at every view that has merit to make sure there is no area of the Christian life and Kingdom service that is" left behind"....so to speak.We need to be careful not to live like the man who hid his one talent.We are bought with a price.

    The reformers and puritans seemed eager to please the Lord.
    Sometimes this zeal was mistakenly manifested in the flesh and not bathed in grace.Graceless law keeping is error.Keeping the law and kingdom principles is to live in love, to God and to our neighbor.

    It is easier to critical of some of the early teachers who tried to pave the way for us. Some of the modern writers are seeking to fine tune some of these solid and yet rough attempts...to deal with the language that takes work to grasp.
    Some turn away and will not seek out these things, but rather just seek to avoid the issues that get raised.

    Kyred asked before what was Edwards view of the Anti-Christ. he was no so specific, but saw the roman church and papacy as one element of it...with muslims also.that was the best he could do.I do not agree totally with him...but I do not count him an enemy, or as some would proclaim a "heretic"....which is very sad.

    Even though i do not totally agree on this idea of the anti-christ...they both are antichrists in that they do not present the real gospel.

    Edwards seems to be like a mix of amill and postmill....and i can understand why. these men all seek to convert the difficult language, the symbols and figures...by using scripture.

    I think at this point the Postmill try a bit harder to be specific...the Amill more general.

    This passage is one that has me leaning Postmill-

    5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

    6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
     
  19. Luke2427

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    It was Edwards who persuaded me that the Bible teaches postmil.

    Are you postmil, Icon?
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    I am in between postmill and amill at this point.

    Edwards shook up my premill ideas because even though I tried to resist many of his ideas ...the verses he offered made too much sense to ignore.

    In other words......i could not ignore the force of the verses...this whole concept of the covenant curses from Deut 28-33...being fulfilled on the nation of israel at the time of Jesus ministry made such biblical sense.

    the other views only give lip service to it. heb 2:5-8 speaks of dominion being restored unto redeemed image -bearers....it says.

    5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

    6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


    All things are not yet put under HIM....for the gospel to go worldwide implies a long period of time,it is a work in progress. Edwards lays out a timeline.Some of the modern writers,Gentry, Demar, mathison, work at tightening it up....


    The postmill view seems to address this issue more biblically as i see it.Amill agrees with much of it...but remain much more general...not as specific.

    The kingdom is here now and we are to serve the Lord in it as it spreads worldwide. i believe we could still be the early church.

    premill look for the physical idea of an earthly Kingdom yet future, Some deny that Jesus is king ruling right now, as they look at the newspaper headlines rather than scripture.:thumbsup:
     
    #20 Iconoclast, Mar 18, 2014
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