How to effectively counter Mark 16:16 & Acts 2:38?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bro. Ruben, Jan 8, 2006.

  1. Bro. Ruben

    Bro. Ruben
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    My apologies to all; I guess these verses have been discussed many times over.

    A newbie, I’m having a hard time finding the threads.

    Being a Baptist, I believe that baptism is not part of salvation. Come summer (March), I will be having my vacation in the Philippines and want to have serious discussions with my family, relatives and friends whom some of them believe that baptism is indeed part of salvation.

    Your input will surely be appreciated.

    Many thanks. God bless.

    Bro. Ruben


    A. Mark 16:16 “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

    B. Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
     
  2. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    Notice that Mark 16:16 does not say, "but he who is not baptized will be condemned".
     
  3. gb93433

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    During the time of the NT those who were baptized professed Jesus as their Lord which meant that the emperor was renounced as their lord. When that happened the emperor could have had them executed should he choose. So under those conditions I think it would be wasy to say that anyone who stands up and proclaims Jesus as Lord knowing they could lose their life wouild be a believer. Baptism was the proof of their faith in Christ. No closet Christians in that day.

    Believe and faith come from the same word and they are verbs. They are accompanied by action and are not static but dynamic. They are words which are like a creed being a statement of faith like we might do but are verbs. The book of James compares a genuine saving faith to that of the Jews which was a statement of faith called the shema.
     
  4. PamelaK

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    Regarding Acts 2:38: In the Greek the word "for" means roughly the same as "because of". For example, we do the same in other English circumstances. We "jump for joy" not in order to become joyful, but because we are joyful already.
     
  5. Keith M

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    Here is a good analogy.

    We see a poster in the post office that says John Doe is wanted for murder. This does not mean that the authorities are planning to murder someone and that they want John Doe to come help them. Of course not! It means that John Doe is wanted because of murders he has already committed. Those who interpret "for" in Acts 2:38 to mean "in order to gain remission of sin" place an erroneous interpretation on the word. This wrong interpretation also forces a belief that is contrary to what the Bible really teaches about baptism.

    As far as the passage in Mark, it comes from an ending of the gospel which may not have been in the original. Just like the part about handling snakes (Mark 16:18) it is not wise to base any "doctrine" on what was possibly added by some well-intentioned scribe at a later date. [​IMG]
     
  6. Eliyahu

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    If you read the Greek texts of Acts 2:38, you will find :
    Repent results in the Remission of Sins,
    Baptize results in the gifts of Holy Spirit.

    " Μετανησατε καιβαπτισθητς εκαστοσ υμων επι τω ονοματι Ιησοθ Χριστοθ εισ αφεσιν αμαρτιων και ληψεσθε την δωρεαν του Αγιου Πνευματοσ "


    The manuscripts for Mark is known to be 620. Among them 615 are Majority texts. Among the rest of 5 minority manuscripts, only 2 of them doesn't have Mark 16:12-20, and they are Vatican Text and Sinaiticus. Sinaiticus was written by the monks for exercising writings and was about to be used for kindling paper even though it might be wrapped in a clothes.
    Whether such argument is true or not can be checked with many verses. It contains extremely ridiculous errors on so many verses. It doesn't have any value as Bible manuscript.

    Vatican text doesn't have John 8:1-11 about the woman caught in adultery and omits thousands of words here and there. It doesn't have Timothy because Husband of one wife contradicts Celibacy, and it doesn't have Hebrew after 9:14 as ""the sacrifice once for all"" contradicts weekly sacrifice by Eucharist, and it doesn't have Revelation maybe because they find Mother of God is not exalted there and the judgment on Mother of Harlot relates to the city with seven hills.

    Remember that most of the majority texts are the descendants of the manuscripts older than Vatican texts and they are not the copies of Vatican text.

    Critics say always "Yea hath God said?"(Gen 3:1)
    Has God indeed said Mark 16:12-20?
    If people cannot believe, let's delete it!
    If Believers cannot perform it, it means that it doesn't apply to all the ages and therefore it is untrue, therefore it is not a part of the Bible!

    Everyone should take it very serious matter that there are about 8000 spots where TR and minority texts are different, among 7,800 verses in NT, which means each verse has one difference as an average.
     
  7. genesis12

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    The referenced verses are unfortunate ~~ they have caused such great debate. However, one has to remember that the entire Bible is "a context." That is, one cannot single out a verse here and there, then build a denomination based upon them. Contextually, then, water baptism cannot be seen as essential for salvation. It is an outward sign to the public that an inward event has transformed the life of the person who now professes Christ as Savior and Lord. HOWEVER ~~~ I do not believe it is essential for us to debate such an issue. Those who want to hold to the practice of water baptism following an acknowledgement of Christ as Savior should just keep on keepin' on. One would hope that they do not ever get to the place where they say, "Oops! Ole Fred was sick that day ~~ we didn't get him baptized ~~ and now he's dead! Lost another one!" ;)
     
  8. mountainrun

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    John was executed "for" the crime of murder.

    Your relatives have to insist that the execution caused the crime if they insist that the baptism caused the remission of sins.

    The word "for" is from a Greed word "eis" which may be translated as "as a result of."

    So they were baptized because their sins were forgiven, not to cause it to happen.


    Good luck though. Firmly held beliefs are hard for some to give up. I wouldn't push it too hard and cause a family riff.

    Do not appear to be attacking them.

    Here is wisdom from experience.

    Simply state your belief,with the analagy of the executed killer and let them argue against it.

    MR
     
  9. mountainrun

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    On second thought, Ruben, your main goal should be to make sure that they understand the truth about salvation rather than baptism.

    Witness to them, do not argue doctrine.

    The criminal on the cross was not baptized but was saved by faith alone.

    MR
     
  10. Bro. Ruben

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    Thanks for the input.

    I also accept that the last 12 verses of Mark is questionable particularly when it was said that Jesus showed up in a different "form". Jesus had a glorious body not in a different form.

    Your explanations will surely be part of my sharing.
     
  11. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Hello Bro. Ruben. Below is my understanding, which was given to us from Christ in heaven.

    Mountainrun gives good advice – “On second thought, Ruben, your main goal should be to make sure that they understand the truth about salvation rather than baptism."

    Mark 16:15-18 is part of the "great commission" given to His Apostles to preach to His people, and when Israel accepts, the heathen will be preached to.

    Witness Christ from heaven to them, for the Old has given way to the New. On earth Jesus tells us more than once (Matthew 15:22-28) He came for only His own. Peter in Acts 2:38 is doing the same thing. Peter never preached to a Gentile until He was forced to years later as shown in Acts 10 (please read and study verses 43 and 44.) Peter and the other Jews were flabbergasted, confused and didn’t know what was going on at the time. But this could only happen after Christ spoke to Saul/Paul on Damascus Road for Christ revealed to Paul what had been hidden from even the beginning.

    Let’s make a comparison. Acts 2:38, ”Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” This directive, this Gospel to the Jew pales when put up against Acts 16:28-31, ”But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30. And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31. And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

    The Pentecostal church still made blood sacrifices, washings, and all the other 600 requirements for the Jew. Why does that gospel pale? The life is in the blood and Christ Jesus is Life; not the blood of animals that only covered.

    The gospel of the “kingdom is at hand” did not come for Israel refused their King. God did what He had laid out before hand. Ephesians 3:1-9. ” For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
    2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
    3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7. Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
    9. And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    Today we are saved by Grace through faith, with no works. Peter writes that Paul has wisdom to impart, saying it is a good idea to listen to him, Paul - II Peter 3:15-16. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  12. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    In Acts 10, we see Peter preaching to a crowd. Toward the end of the chapter, we see this powerful question

    Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

    In the final verse we see them being commanded to be baptized.

    Baptism does not save, but it is commanded after salvation. It is an outward profession of being buried into Christ's death and being raised into newness of life. Romans 6:4 and Colossians 2:12.
     
  13. ituttut

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    Hello standingfirminChrist. I personally believe we must be careful, very careful in the way we refer to and act on “water” baptism. Bro. Ruben is hoping to draw them away from the thought that “water” baptism is necessary for our salvation, or afterwards. If we hang onto to the notion that we “must” be baptized for we are commanded to do so after salvation, is this not a work? If so, then it is necessary for our salvation to make sure we are “water baptized”.

    This is the only gospel that Peter was told to preach, and he was faithful. At this point he knew nothing of the gospel to the heathen that had just recently been established by God. Paul was taught over a period of time, and as things became plain to Him of what Christ revealed to him, we see what is important, and what is not. I Corinthians 1:17-18, ”For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” Things today are in the “hands of God” and not in the “hands of man”.

    Does man wish to separate himself from others in different churches? Evidently so, for I know of no church that agrees with another in “water baptism”. Why is this? Because it is not necessary for salvation, but we believe we must do it for one purpose of another. I personally believe one that is a Christian should be able to join a Baptist church, without being "water baptized" for that person is in Christ Jesus. I cannot for the life me understand why we would turn one in the Body of Christ away, as we dare not let one in the Body of Christ into our church that has not be “water baptized”.

    The “great commission” was the commandment to the Jew to be “water” baptized in that day for the remission of their sins, but the “grace commission” of today does not require that command. If Baptism is necessary for we today in the Body of Christ, does that void our One Spiritual Baptism without hands the moment we believe? What have we to do with this “ordinance” to the Jew? We everyone need to make sure we know why we are “water baptized”, and that is to be with those we wish to be with, and the only way that is possible is to be “water baptized” into an earthly church, and not into the Body of Christ. As we are still in the flesh, we are still carnal, and we respond in kind. We are carnal Christians whether we are “water baptized” or not, and we are in the Body of Christ whether we are “water baptized” or not.

    Peter built on the foundation of Jesus Christ as Jesus instructed – Acts 3:25-26, ”Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.” First to the seed from the loins of Abraham, and then to the heathen. Paul builds on the foundation of Christ Jesus as he is instructed and he is sent to the heathen, as he is the Apostle to the Gentile – Romans 11:13, ”For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office.” I believe this heavenly appointed Apostle for he is the only one I have. We heathen have not been promised the earth, but have something much better. We have gained heaven by being in the Body of Christ.

    While the Apostles lived and the Holy City of Jerusalem, and the Temple existed the covenant with Israel still stood. We know by scripture, while Jerusalem and the Temple existed the Apostles never preached a gospel to the heathen Gentile (one exception Peter in Acts 10). We know for a fact James and the earthly Apostles were still under the Old Covenant for they continued their rituals of blood sacrifice, and ordinances.

    What about John’s writings? They were written after the destruction of the Temple, and the fall of Jerusalem. No one understood what Jesus was talking about until years after His sacrifice and ascension to heaven. They were also written some 30 years or so after the death of Paul. That Old covenant is officially over. Why do we wish to carry baggage with us? We are not going to need it, for we have already been placed into the Body of Christ. We are just awaiting our glorified bodies. Please notice that John does not come anywhere near to “repent and be water baptized for the remission of sins”. He stays clear of this gospel for the Jew for that "kingdom" they have been promised cannot now come until we in His Body are “caught up to Him in the air”. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  14. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    Baptism is necessary for obedience. Thankfully, our salvation is not dependent upon our obedience, otherwise every single one of us would be in big trouble.
     
  15. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Hope of Glory, I have not been able to find scripture demanding our obedience today to be "water" baptized. Can you help me on this? Thanks Christian faith, ituttut
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

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    Whether Paul's message was different than Peter's or not, it does not nullify that which was preached by Peter. Peter commanded them to be baptized. I believe that baptism is an act of obedience one should be willing to submit to. It is an outward profession of faith.

    I also believe that we are to partake of the communion. Jesus Himself said, 'This do...' Just those two words make it a commandment. Commandments are to be followed.
     
  17. standingfirminChrist

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    Ituttut,

    You missed these verses. Paul did baptize.

    1 Corinthians 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
    1 Corinthians 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
    1 Corinthians 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.


    I see that Paul also baptized the Phillipian jailor and his house as well.

    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
    Acts 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
    Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed [their] stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

    Might I add that the baptism was done on the same night as the jailor's conversion?
     
  18. Brother James

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    It's been my experience through the years that arguing with someone who believes that Acts 2:38 or mark 16 is the plan of savation is an exercise in futility. When you run into someone like this be subtle and guide the conversation toward the Pauline epistles and the doctine of salvation proper. Remember you're dealing with a dead and hell bound sinner who is incapable of understanding spiritual things apart from the illumination of the Holy Spirit.
     
  19. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Hello again, Christian friend.

    I agree with the teaching of the Bible. It is God’s Word, and He wishes us to understand. And we are to understand that in the days of the Apostles, there were two gospels being preached at the same time. One gospel today is not in effect. If we don’t believe there were two gospels, then we do not believe the Word of God, which is quoted a little further down. I'm not saying some are not saved, for if they believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, they will be saved regardless of what their answer will be in that day.

    What answer do you give to those Christians today saying they believe in the gospel of the “great commission”, and they refuse to obey? I know most Baptist’s announce this belief from the housetops. Those that say they believe in the “great commission”, then aren’t they being disobedient? Why? Because Jesus said, and Peter preached, “you must repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins”. They must be obedient and be “water” baptized. Do you believe and preach the gospel of the “great commission” given to the Pentecostal Jewish church? Or do you preach the Christian message of Paul? We can’t believe both gospels are for us today.

    But how can we know we are not supposed to mix the gospel of the “circumcised” with the gospel of the “uncircumcised”. The Holy Spirit spells it out for us. Galatians 2:7, ” But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter.” Paul says we better believe the gospel of Christ revealed to him from heaven. Peter gives warning in his second book, third chapter, attention is to be paid to the wisdom of Paul.

    And what of John? The Holy Spirit had John write his gospel and three books some 30 or so years after Paul died of things Jesus said while on earth but could not be understood by man at that time. But all of these “hidden” things of God from since the beginning are now revealed to man. Doesn’t John sound just like Paul, and not Peter or James? Of course now we have the complete the story.

    Of interest and every man can draw his own conclusion. Please show where John commands “repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins”? He dares not mention such things, after Christ has ascended into heaven. Our repentance is found in Christ Jesus, and we are circumcised and baptized without hands. Is this not what Paul preached to the Gentile’s, and then John was allowed to preach after the destruction of the Holy City and the Temple?” John touches on “repentance” of the Jewish churches in the Book of Revelation, as God again is dealing directly with His own Nation, His own people, for prophecy will be fulfilled.

    Under covenant with God, they made promises they did not and could not keep, so God holds them to their promise. They Must Repent of their Sins as They Broke Covenant With Him. Ephesians 3:8”Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ.” I am not of that Old Covenant and neither is anyone else today.
    I also believe this, as does every Christian I know. But I do take note that Jesus did not reveal to Paul this was a command. This we are to do as “oft as we will”. Christian friend if this is a command then we are put back under the “law of ordinances”, and you know we are no longer to obey commands placed on those promised the “kingdom”. This is not a Christmas or Easter remembrance as we are told by the Catholic church to also observe. He wishes us to do this when we will at our discretion. This is not a command, but a memorial (recognition of Him). It is a request, a remembrance, and not some ordinance that we must do, for then we would be put back under a “law of ordinance.” He says I want you to talk to me on a personal basis, just you and me. So we can see if we don’t do this at some interval’s, we are telling Him I am not right with you, so I can’t talk to you, or I have chosen to give you the “cold” shoulder.

    He knows the shape we are in down here for He went through the same thing as we do. So He understands we in the flesh, in these carnal bodies have a fight on our hands, and cannot everyday, week or even perhaps months, commune with Him. But somewhere along the line, we will commune with Him as often as we will. Christian faith, ituttut
     
  20. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Thanks for this information, but I am aware of their existence for they are in His Word. I Corinthians 1:17-18, For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. Paul tells us the gospel is the preaching of the Cross, and not as before of “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”.

    I Corinthians 12:13, ”For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” [qb]
    Paul is smart, but as he is human it took time for God to teach Paul some of the unsearchable riches in Christ. It is onward and upward as time progresses. I believe the five or so years from l Corinthians to Ephesians shows a complete understanding of “water” baptism. But the importance is no longer there as shown in Ephesians 4:5 and Colossians 2:11-13. Are we to just ignore the understanding over time that Christ was able to reveal to Paul?

    Shouldn’t we ask why Paul doesn’t exhort and make sure Timothy and Titus include “water” baptism in their doctrine? Why will John not mention baptism after the ascension of Jesus Christ in John’s gospel, or not mention at all in his Epistles?
    We Baptist believe “water” baptism is not required for our salvation, as shown here, and also Cornelius and Lydia. These “water” baptisms continued as the kingdom program for Israel was being phased out, and this took time for all to absorb. It took time for all, just as today, to realize what John the Baptist said to his people. Luke 3:15, ” John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.” John baptized with water, but tells them this is going to end, for they will be baptized with the Holy Ghost. This did happen, and then Peter saw the same happen to Cornelius. But as scripture progresses, we see the Holy Spirit is given through the hands of man.

    Then farther down the line we see man’s hands are removed from the process. The “free” gift, with no obligations or obedience to work, is to be accepted by the Christian. Colossians 2:11-14, ”In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    12. Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross”.
    This tells us the “requirements”, the “obligations” have been removed. They were nailed to the Cross. Now they understand, and we are to understand.

    Is it a sin today to baptize, or submit to baptism? Paul says we are to work out our own salvation. Some Christians believe in retaining the ritual, and some do not. But we Baptist’s know it is not necessary to our salvation.
    Perhaps there are some today in the Baptist church that were baptized on the spot, right after their salvation, but I don’t know any of them. What happens to the Christian that dies before they are baptized? I believe they are in the Body of Christ. Christian faith, ituttut
     

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