How were the Old Testament Saints saved?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Apr 20, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Before we venture too far into this discussion, lets assume the Old Testament Saints obtained "approval" through faith and upon physical death were taken to "Abraham's bosom." Since no one entered heaven before Christ came to earth (John 3:13) Abraham" bosom was some sort of "holding cell" for the saints God set aside for salvation.

    So the question is, how do we understand Hebrews 11, especially 11:39-40. Did Christ empty out Abraham's bosom and take the saints to Paradise, the third heaven?
     
  2. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Not to get too indept until I have time to go back look over some things. The Old Testament believer was saved by faith through Grace. Abrahams faith was counted unto him for righteousness we are told.

    From the Lord's own lips we were told of Abaham's busom. The saviour they looked for came. Ephesians 4: 9"(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

    Paul said the Lord first descended. Peter also tells us He did.

    1 Peter 3:
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

    So when did He preach to the spirits in prison, when he descended during his time in the grave.

    Christ took those souls in Paradise to heaven, when He had accomplished the work for their salvation.

    Ephesians 3:14For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

    15Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

    16That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

    Talks of the whole family in heaven, not in paradise. So with His death He descended inot Paradise and took those souls to heaven. I have more on this I believe just need to get home and to it.
     
  3. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    I agree with almost all you wrote, RevMWC, except for the last line, and this is just a nitpick, not consequencial. Paradise and the third heaven are one and the same. So Paradise is heaven. Therefore, Jesus took those in Abraham's bosom, which is not heaven, to Paradise/heaven.

    Other than that, you are spot on according to my understanding of scripture.
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,131
    Likes Received:
    1,302
    Abraham's Bosom being some sort of Protestant Purgatory is a myth. The Old Testament saints went to heaven as soon as they died.
     
  5. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Onw thing Paradise wasn't the same as heaven for Jesus there was a great gulf fixrd between torments and Paradise menaing that they were both at the time a part of the complete Hades abode. Jesus always refered to His father being in Heaven not paradise.
     
  6. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    So then would you say Jesus falsely taught it?

    Luke 16:
    21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

    22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
     
  7. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi TCassidy, Jesus said no one has assended to heaven in John 3:13?

    But you are right, Abraham's bosom is not a protestant purgatory, it was a holding cell for saints to be saved once Christ became the propitiation for their tresspasses and sins.
     
  8. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hi RevMWC, check out 2 Corinthians 12:2-4? I understand from this passage that Paradise and the third heaven are the same.
     
  9. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    One question then we can continue, was this before or after the Lord ascended?
     
  10. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,515
    Likes Received:
    49
    Paul is referring to a time after Christ ascended. Remember he watched the coats of those who stoned Steven, so the 14 years was afterward.
     
  11. mandym

    mandym
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0

    You did not quote the entire verse which in this case takes it out of context.

    John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

    The context here is with Nicodemus and Jesus speaking of heavenly things[v.12] that Nicodemus does not understand. Nicodemus just got done asking "How can these things be?". He did not understand what Jesus was saying about salvation. Jesus was simply saying no one alive and walks the earth has been to heaven and therefore cannot speak of heavenly things with the authority that Jesus has since He alone came down from heaven.

    There is no doctrine to be gleaned here with regards to Abraham's bosom.
     
  12. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Since Christ took the souls from Paradise to heaven then all now Go to heaven. Until Christ paid for their sins they went to Paradiseand the theif went to paradise. Since that time to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, Jesus didn't say that in the story of Lazerus and the rich man, He said they were in Abrahm's bosom and told the theif today thou shall be with me in paradise.

    So the death on the cross made the difference for the Old Testament saints.
     
  13. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Oh but there is it proves that the O.T. saint did not go to heaven but to Paradise, an abode in Hades. Then Paul says we now are absent from the body and present with the Lord so when the change and why, the change at Christ death and His fully pying for their sins on the cross. He was then able to take them to heaven to be with the Father as they had been promised.
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,494
    Likes Received:
    454
    You are misunderstanding John 3:13. In that verse, the Lord Jesus is preaching Himself to Nicodemus as the answer to Agur's riddle in Prov 30:4.
    Abraham's bosom is a synonym for heaven. J.C.Ryle writes, "The expression is most probably a proverbial one. It signifies the place of rest and safety to which all believing Jews were carried after death. Abraham was the father of the faithful....and to be with him after death implied happiness. The expression, 'to sit down with Abraham Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of God' is somewhat like it (Matt 8:11)."

    Steve
     
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,131
    Likes Received:
    1,302
    Catholic myth out of the middle ages.
     
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,131
    Likes Received:
    1,302
    He didn't. Abraham's bosom is in the same place as Abraham. Heaven. This idiotic idea that Heaven and Paradise are two different places has no scriptural support at all.
     
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,131
    Likes Received:
    1,302
    He said that nobody has ascended to heaven to bring back the gospel. Context is your friend.
    Once again you demonstrate a shallow knowledge of the bible. Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
     
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,131
    Likes Received:
    1,302
    Amen. :)
    Not to mention that Enoch as did Elijah. As God is no respecter of persons, if those two were the only ones in heaven, they were very lonely and God IS a respecter of persons!
     
  19. mandym

    mandym
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0
    Again this is incorrect. It is not what Jesus said. You need to read that passage in its appropriate context more carefully.
     
  20. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Here we see hte reference to them going to Hades yet again.

    Psalms 16:9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

    10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

    Verse 10 we see Paul also gives us.

    Ephesians 4: 9"(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

    Christ ALSO rose from the grave and didn't see corruption.

    1Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    Christ again went to paradise and preached to those in torments.

    Seem it shows this all through scripture. So when He brought the sould from Abraham's bosom, note this is not purgatory, purgatory was taught as a holding place for those who weren't quite up to standards for heaven. Abraham's bosom was the place that ALL old testament believers were sent there until Christ preached unto the spirits in prison as HE took the believers to heaven and closed it down.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...