How were the OT saints saved? Part Deux

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Apr 28, 2011.

  1. convicted1

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    Bro Allan made a reply to one of my posts, and that thread was closed before I could respond, so I want to start a new one to carry on this conv:

    Bro Allan wrote:

    That which I have highlighted I want to address, Bro. Allan. When Jesus made this statement, He was talking about His resurrected body, and that it(resurrected body) had not yet ascended to His Father. Here is something to look at:

    Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

    46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

    When Jesus died, His Spirit when back to God(UP!!!), and His body went to the tomb(DOWN!!). Now after He was resurrected, it was then that He made the statement, "touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to My Father!!"

    Matt. 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    You see, when Jesus died, His Spirit went back to the Father, and after His natural body was resurrected with His glorified body, the bodies of the saints arose and went into the holy city(I believe that this is heaven, and not the city Jerusalem) and appeared unto many.

    Psa. 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  2. convicted1

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    Bro Allan posted this:

    That which is bolded, I have never saw/heard anything like this before. I agree that hell is a place for people awaiting their final judgement. But, it is for those who are condemned for eternity, those who died lost. Hell is like a regional jail. Whenever you are found guilty, you are placed in a regional jail, until you come before the "big judge", and your final sentence is rendered. You were pronounced guilty, but you had to wait until the "big judge" gave you the final verdict, IOW. Hell is the regional jail. When someone dies lost, they go to hell. While in hell, they are waiting until Jesus comes, to give His reward to the saints and sinners. Those who were found guilty, will come out of hell, and will be given their final sentence, the lake of fire.

    Here is some scriptural support:

    Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


    The second death IS the lake of fire! Look here at what this verse says:

    Rev. 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The righteous ones will never see hell.....and I don't believe they ever did before, according to what I have read in the record of God. I guess we will have to disagree in love Bro. Allan!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  3. Allan

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    No, Jesus does not say it regards His resurrected, as he states "I", not this body, has NOT YET ascended to the Father.

    Also, the phrase - into your hands I commend my spirit- was a common phrasing back them simply meaning - I place my well being or continued safety in your hands. It is the same as we say - I'm placing my life in your hands. It means nothing more than that. He did state Father, Now I come to you or any other such thing but he does not.. he makes a statement that displays His reliance upon the Fathers care. It goes no further than this. Thus it can not prove my position on this verse any more than it can yours.

    Now, please show scripture where it states ANYWHERE that at Christ's death His spirit went "UP". I can provide scripture regarding prophesy that God will not let His soul stay in Sheol. That word 'sheol' by scholars alike refers to the abode of the spirits. It was commonly understood what this meant in the early church, and with the Jews... yet today we flee from the biblically established doctrine because the RCC has a distorted and corrupt version of the doctrine. This view has been around much longer than they have.

    Also with respect to Jesus own story or parable (which ever you prefer to call it) of Lazarus and the Rich man -Luk 16. When has God ever been referred to as Abraham, or when has heaven ever been referred to as Abraham's bossom. The Rich man did not appeal to faith as his reason for receiving mercy, if possible, but called out to 'Father Abraham' meaning I am one of your descendants, have mercy on me and dip the tip...

    Now another point of that story is that hell is across a large chasm, but one you can apparently yell back and forth from. If hell is separated from the presence of God, in darkness and fire, it appears from such a story they really aren't to far apart and hell is fairly close to God's domain of heaven and light.

    What is most interesting is that 'in hell' (hades) is/has the SAME conveyed meaning as 'sheol'. - again, a dual compartment abode waiting for judgment.


    Sorry but the term 'up' does not reference direction but a releasing of His spirit from His body.


    Yes AFTER His resurrection, not prior to it.

    Not one verse above give ANY credence to your assumption. Sorry, but nothing you gave establishes this. You view is built upon the premise that Christ of necessity go to heaven, but my question is WHY?

    and my other question goes back to what I stated before.
    The sins of the OT saints were not removed as Hebrews proves. By faith they are accounted righteous but their sin still remains. The sin issue has to be dealt with. A holy God can not have sin before Him and NOT judge it. Only the shed blood of Christ is able to remove sin but the blood of animals can not. It is merely a covering so-to-speak, yet their sins remained.
     
  4. Allan

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    Hmmm.. were do we find in scripture that Hell is compared to a Jail?
    Not saying it isn't true, but it is a term we use to describe what we perceive, correct?

    So doesn't sin establish ones' guilt?
    And since Hebrews tells us that the blood of goats and bulls does not remove sin (and this was speaking directly to the sacrifices for sin) but that only the blood of Christ Jesus actually removes sin... what does that mean for the OT saints? Though declared righteous through faith, yet their sin and stain remains waiting something to remove it's stench. Hell is nothing more than a place of waiting for the condemned and was also for (at one time though no longer) for those awaiting to be bailed out - so-to-speak, or set free.
    Their sin being still there, though acquitted, had to be dealt with before being set free to go home.

    Yet that was past and no longer a place after Christ Jesus rose.

    Here is some scriptural support:


    I know the second death is the lake of fire, where have I disputed this??

    Now you are confusing scripture.. the Lake of Fire is not Hell, nor is it the second death dear brother. And since Christ has resurrected no saint ever will see hell.. the abode of the dead.. waiting for judgment. Their (and our) judgment has been laid on Christ Jesus who has taken away our sins


    Then might I suggest you go back and read again, but this time, research for yourself what sheol means and meant to them, as well as hades. And then once you see those words you will better understand my point regarding the record of God on this subject. Remember also that there ARE other words in the both the Hebrew and Greek used to convey the words grave and death, and they 'are' used. Sheol and Hades have a specific meaning regarding scripture and should not discarded so without studying it out.


    :) That we might.. enjoy and peace be with you in Christ Jesus
     
  5. convicted1

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    Those who die and go there(hell) are already guilty. They then come out and are rendered their sentence, and cast into the LoF, to torment forever. So, I believe hell(the one with the flames in it), is a "holding cell" for those who die(d) guilty.


    I know you haven't disputed this, I was using it to try to make a "point", like the top of my head....LOL

    I know that hell is not the LoF, that was a typing "Fruedian slip", I guess. But, the LoF IS the second death...that was what I was trying to prove.


    Now, if you are trying to say that when Jesus died, and was ascended to the Father, that those who were there were set free and went to be with Him, we may be a little closer on this than I first thought. Is this what you are trying to convey? Rather than Jesus literally going there to preach to them, His resurrection set them free, and they came out of "hell" to be with Him?


    I know that "hell" is translated from different words that has different meanings. "Sheol", "Hades", and even "tartatrus"(sp?), each was translated "hell". But, chew on what I have proposed to you, and get back with me!! love you, Brother!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  6. Allan

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    Ok, and I agree with you.. that is now the only compartment.. yet at one time there was two, and both were not of fire. However you still haven't dealt with the sin aspect of the saints of the OT. Since the blood of animals can not remove sin as Hebrews tells us.. and there is NO remission of sins without the shedding of blood.. does not the sin that remained on the OT saints convey their guilt and in a legal sense that has to be dealt with. The fact it was not yet removed but 'covered' still must legally be dealt with. The judgment they are righteous by faith, must also be followed up the payment that, up till Christ's death, had not been paid.

    Or as I said previously:
    ...doesn't sin establish ones' guilt? [and only if the debt has been paid can that sin be removed as paid in full]
    And since Hebrews tells us that the blood of goats and bulls does not remove sin (and this was speaking directly to the sacrifices for sin) but that only the blood of Christ Jesus actually removes sin... what does that mean for the OT saints? Though declared righteous through faith, yet their sin and stain remains waiting something to remove it's stench. Hell is nothing more than a place of waiting for the condemned and was also for (at one time though no longer) for those awaiting to be bailed out - so-to-speak, or set free.
    Their sin being still there, though acquitted, had to be dealt with before being set free to go home.


    Jesus didn't go to 'preach' to them. I'm not sure what you are trying to convey there.. as He was not trying to convince them of who He was nor trying to get them to believe in Him. His descending was a declaration that He was the one they were waiting for and was there to take them home. He went and lead captivity captive as the scriptures state. (eph 4:8) He went to opened the doors that no man could open and brought them with Him the redeemed at His resurrection.

    Trust me brother.. I was were you are now :)
    It was because I was challenged to do my own study on the subject, specifically the words and their meanings at that time period, AND to look at the early church view as well as the Jewish view (not saying they were always right but that as a group this was held as a dominant view - so why was that?)
     
    #6 Allan, Apr 28, 2011
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  7. revmwc

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    Verse 18 shows to whom Peter is refereing it is Christ whom the Spirit raised from the dead. He preached to the Spirits in prison. The highlighted part says those who heard were partly those, "Which sometime were disobedient" in Noah's time. Keep in mind sheoul or hades was not 2 compartments but three, tartarus the bottomless pit is a part and those:

    2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

    Not all the fallen angels are in hell (tartarus).

    Jude 1: 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

    Left their first estate and their own habitation. What was their first estate that of spirits, their habitation was the form of a spirit being.

    It would appear these spirits heard His message too, as he told those Old Testament Saints of His victory over sin and death for them.

    Now what do you know of purgatory? Have you looked at it in depth, talked to any old time Catholics? I have and here is what they will tell you about purgatory as taught by the RCC. Purgatory is a place where souls go that didn't work hard enough to get to heaven but weren't bad enough to go to hell (torments). That pugatory is a place where they work their way out of in order to get fully into heaven. As they work, then their work is counted toward them getting out of purgatory and into heaven. Since the Catholics teach mostly a salvation by works more than faith then pugatory is a place that keeps you from hell (torments) and helps you work enough bad off to get into heaven.
    My Dad was a catholic growing up as well as the pastor I grew up under and they both explained the RCC teaching in this way. I have also spoken with several catholic folks I have worked with and was told the same thing.

    So when we say Christ blood paid the way out of Paradise it in no way resembles the RCC teaching of purgatory. Just the opposite is true, it was Christ payment for sins His blood that after being presented to the Father in the Holy chamber of heaven cleared the path for every believer to enter heaven and the souls in paradise were taken into heaven. It was the blood that made the difference just as it does for us, no one worked their way out of paradise.

    Just as the souls of the unbelievers are held in torments until the final Great White Throne judgement so were the O.T. saints held in paradise until the Saviours blood became payment for their sins.
     
    #7 revmwc, Apr 28, 2011
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  8. JesusFan

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    Yes, they was a time when had to wait for the promised Messiah to come and do His atoning work, than were in the position to go onto heaven...
    Once the veil at temple was ripped, that showed now ALL can go directly to heaven, no resting place...
     
  9. Allan

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    Ok, this is a version of the teaching I have never heard of nor am familiar with unless you are referring the 2nd compartment being divided - of which some think/agree with.. but not that there was 3 compartments. (though it is a view not held by the majority but does have scriptural warrant to be considered)

    The divided compartment view is still in the 2nd compartment but specifically designed (so-to-speak) for angels and that is primarily taken from the passage of 2 Peter 2:4.

    Is that what you are referring to - the divided compartment? (Upper and lower)
     
    #9 Allan, Apr 28, 2011
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  10. revmwc

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    Actually if you see Jesus speaking of the great gulf fixed between the two chambers that gulf would lead to a bottomless pit. Torments on one side and paradise on the otherside of the great gulf with the bottomless in between and the door as refered to in revelation located on it. The Angel having the key to the bottomless pit.
     
  11. convicted1

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    This is why I disagree with everything that states Jesus went to hell before He ascended to the Father!! You get all these different "takes" on the torment side of paradise.

    Before you know it, someone will try to say that sheol/hades/hell/tartarus.etc will have fours part compartments in torment, and two parts in the paradise side of it. There are way too many different views on this, Brothers and Sisters.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  12. Allan

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    You mean like you get all kinds of different takes and variations on idfferent issues (from those specifically within that particular view, and not their detractors) of like regeneration, synergism, monergism, Premill, Amill, and all other aspects of the Christian faith. You must disagree with every Christian doctrine out there :)

    In fact, he just states it a bit differently than how it is typically addressed. We understand that hell is not just one single place where the all the damned go, like a single room. We know that there are those 'in' hell (that is 1), and some even chained 'under the darkness' (The term darkness here is also a reference to hell) - and that is a second place of the whole.

    So his statement was just put in a way I have not heard it addressed, not that he was incorrect.
     
    #12 Allan, Apr 28, 2011
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  13. convicted1

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    I don't disagree with "every doctrine", Bro. Allan, but if I think that something is amiss(using the record of God for proof), then I am to question it. I suppose all of us do this....:) And just because I think something isn't correct, doesn't automatically make me right, either. I just study the Word, and pray that God blesses me to have the correct belief. I suppose you do the same.

    But you see, everyone else prior to that post, stated a two compartment dwelling place, and now he stated a three compartment dwelling. But, like I said, we all have to pray, study, and meditate, and pray study, and meditate some more, and PRAY that we get our beliefs right!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  14. Allan

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    I wasn't saying his statement was correct, but nor was I deny the usage.
    No one denies the abyss/bottomless pit as being apart of hell, he just states it is another separate compartment.. which in truth could be used as a better illustration to understand there is a distinction in scripture as to different aspects of the place we know as Hell.
     
  15. Steadfast Fred

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    There is not one single verse in the Word of God that says paradise ever was in hell.

    Think about this...

    Jesus is hanging on the cross, facing certain death. Two thieves on either side. One asks Jesus to remember him when He comes into His Kingdom. Jesus replies, "To day thou shalt be with me in paradise."

    If paradise was in hell, what kind of promise would that be to the thief? Old Testament saints looked to the Christ, their Messiah, their Salvation. They already knew of sheole. They believed the departed souls went to a compartment of sheole.

    When Saul went to the witch of Endor, he wanted her to bring up the spirit of Samuel... not his body. When Samuel appeared, he questioned why Saul had brought him UP. Samuel's soul was in a compartment of sheole. It was not paradise, Jesus' statement to the thief proves that.

    To day thou shalt be with me in paradise was a promise that the thief would go to the paradise of God... not a fictional paradise in sheole.

    If Jesus had meant sheole when He said paradise, He would be telling the thief that He was not the resurrection and the life, but that He, like the thief, was also looking for a Messiah to bring Him out of sheole.

    NO, paradise is not, and never was, in hell. Jesus' promise to the thief was a statement that assured him he would be in the Paradise of God.
     
  16. revmwc

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    Paradise was a compartment in sheoul that is where you get confused. The compartment of Paradise was where Abraham's bosom was located and as we see in the story of Lazerus and the rich man they could communicate with each other across the Great Gulf. The reference to the kingdom by the theif was recognizing Christ as the true Messiah and sayin when you reign on the throne of David remember me.
     
  17. Allan

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    Remember, only those of faith entered Abrahams Bosom also known to the Jews as Paradise.

    Also while you are correct that Samuel was in a compartment of sheol, I would suggest you study out just what that meant and what that compartment according to the Jewish understanding meant or better what the positive side was typically called. You might be surprised what you find.. and just why Jesus didn't say you will be with me in heaven or with the Father, or any other type of statement.. but stayed with the traditional view of Sheol. Remember that the compartment you are referencing was not burning fire and darkness, ect... but was a place for the those of faith to reside till redemption and resurrection was completed.
     
  18. Steadfast Fred

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    Just because Abraham and the rich man could talk to each other across a great gulf does not mean where Abraham was was paradise.

    I could stand on one side of a chasm and yell to another. Does that mean one of us is in paradise? Of course not!

    The Bible never calls where Abraham was paradise.

    Paul identifies where Paradise is in the Word of God... it's in the third heaven. It never was in sheole.
     
    #18 Steadfast Fred, Apr 29, 2011
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  19. Steadfast Fred

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    Where is your Scripture that states that the compartment was called Abraham's bosom? Better yet, where is your Scripture that says that compartment where Abraham and Lazarus was was called paradise?

    I have studied all the Scripture that speaks of sheole/hades/tartarus, and have yet to find any that state that the compartment was called paradise or even that it was called Abraham's bosom.

    There is only one verse in the entire Bible that mentions Abraham's bosom. When studied in it's context, one can see it was not speaking of a compartment called Abraham's Bosom, but rather it was speaking of the bosom of Abraham... his chest. Lazarus was resting upon Abraham's chest.
     
  20. Allan

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    try going back to how the word was understood back then.



    I would suggest you extend you study then brother. There is much scholarly Jewish and Christian work on the subject

    OK. Ignoring who the term was used and understood at that time, just where was Abraham at, since you already stated it was not heaven?
     

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