How were the OT saints saved?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by i_am_saved, Jun 22, 2001.

  1. i_am_saved

    i_am_saved
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    Before Christ died on the cross, what did a person have to do in order to have eternal life?
     
  2. Scott J

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    This is answered in Romans 3 and 4. In Romans 3:19-20, Paul under inspiration declares that no flesh is justified by the law. (In Romans 7, Paul says that sin used the law to slay him spiritually.) The law and prophets were witnesses to the coming Christ, Romans 3:21. Verses 25 and 26 plainly says that past sins were paid for by Christ's blood and that past sinners were justified by belief in Jesus.

    Chapter 4 goes into a fair amount of detail on how father Abraham was not justified by his works but by his faith in God's promise to make him the father of many nations. This passage demonstrates that this was not only a physical promise but a spiritual promise that the Promised Seed would come through his lineage and save those who shared in Abraham's faith.

    I hope this helps a little. A study of the first 7 chapters of Romans can fill in more details.

    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott J:
    Verses 25 and 26 plainly says that past sins were paid for by Christ's blood and that past sinners were justified by belief in Jesus.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I just check 3:25-26 again and can't find any reference to people in the past being saved by belief in Jesus.

    I took a lot of heat for my explanation of this question in another thread (false teachers I believe). However, no one has yet answered the essential points I made. I believe that OT believers were saved by faith in God, responding in faith and obedience to the content of the revelation which they were responsible for. Perhaps you might read there to save the time of reposting all that here.
     
  4. Chris Temple

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    The same way all people are: by grace, through faith.

    Faith is not a work that saves, but rather a gift of grace. They, as we are given the right faith we need to be saved.

    They believed in Christ promised, and we believe in Christ fulfilled.

    Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth;

    Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

    Luke 24:25-27 And he said to them, "O foolish men, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    John 4:25 The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ); when he comes, he will show us all things."

    John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad."
     
  5. Dr. Chris Connally

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    John 14:1-6 is a great passage of Scripture. Jesus said that "no man comes to the Father but by ME." He said this before He died on that cross. I believe that people starting with Adam and Eve had to believe in the promise given in Genesis 3:15. Hebrews 11:39 And those all, having obtained a good report through faith, recieved not the promise: What was their faith in? I believe it was in that promise made in Genesis 3:15 and later on to men like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc..
     
  6. Scott J

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    Pastor Larry,

    I have added vs. 24 for further clarification in the quotes below but really vs. 19 and on provide the context.

    KJV
    Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

    NASB
    Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
    25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
    26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


    The word propitiation is much more meaningful than most people realize. It includes not only a substitutional sacrifice but also a suggestion of the place and means of the act. The understanding would be the sacrifice made in the holy temple for the sins of the people. I believe this to be a direct link between the sin sacrifices of the Mosaic law and Christ's being the final, sufficient lamb.

    Notice that past sins are referred to in vs. 25. This could be limited to the sins committed previously in one's life. However, that conclusion does not agree with the context. "All" have sinned and are justified in the same way...by Christ's atoning death. If the context is taken all the way back to the beginning of chapter 2, it becomes even more clear that Paul referring to the past way of salvation and its perfection in Christ. The law and the prophets (past) witnessed the coming Messiah so that the OT saints might have faith in Him for redemption.

    The idea that anyone is saved by the law or covenants of the past is refuted in chapter 4 as Paul establishes that even Abraham was justified by faith, not works.

    God bless you all.
     
  7. Dr. Bob

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by i_am_saved:
    Before Christ died on the cross, what did a person have to do in order to have eternal life?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Any belief that centers in what a person has to do to get to heaven is teaching something false. :(

    It is all on what Christ has DONE and the gift of saving grace HE gives. What part of "not of works" is difficult to understand! [​IMG]
     
  8. Peter A. Sarjeant

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Any belief that centers in what a person has to do to get to heaven is teaching something false.

    It is all on what Christ has DONE and the gift of saving grace HE gives. What part of "not of works" is difficult to understand!
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Dr. Bob www.grif.net


    Amen to that. That is Bible. Ahmed

    [ June 23, 2001: Message edited by: Barnabas J. Halo ]
     
  9. Barnabas H.

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    Welcome to the board "Ahmed!" Sorry for going into your message but I see that you had problem in putting Dr. Griffin's words in quotation (so I did it for you).

    If you want to quote a person's posting, all you have to do is click the " " signs, and erase everything after and before the [ ] signs, of which you do not want to include in the quotation. This will help when a previous post is a very, very, very long text. Welcome again! [​IMG]
     
  10. swaimj

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    There is a distinction we should make between what saved people in the OT, and the object of their faith. Jesus is one whose death provides the way of salvation in every age. As Dr. Cassidy pointed out on another thread, Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. His death is the only provision of salvation. However the content of the gospel (death burial and resurrection of Christ) was not given in the OT. Neither was the name Jesus given in the OT. That name is necessary for salvation today. So, I think Pastor Larry is correct; OT saints were saved by believing the revelation they were given, though that revelation was incomplete. Based upon their faith, the work of Christ was applied to them.
     
  11. Peter A. Sarjeant

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Welcome to the board "Ahmed!" Sorry for going into your message but I see that you had problem in putting Dr. Griffin's words in quotation (so I did it for you).
    If you want to quote a person's posting, all you have to do is click the " " signs, and erase everything after and before the [ ] signs, of which you do not want to include in the quotation. This will help when a previous post is a very, very, very long text. Welcome again!

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thank you so much Brother Barnabus. Much appreciated. [​IMG] Ahmed
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    Scott,

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The word propitiation is much more meaningful than most people realize.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I am well aware of the meaning of propitiation. I think you read a bit much into it by saying a suggestion of the place and act but there is nothing lost necessarily. It just puts a little more weight on it than it can bear.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"All" have sinned and are justified in the same way...by Christ's atoning death.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I have not disagreed with this. In fact, if you read my other posts, you will find that I have explicitly and without qualification agreed with this. That is not the question. The question we are dealing with is what was the content of the faith? What were they supposed to believe? To say that they were supposed to believe the person and work of Christ is to say something that is not revealed in the OT. Every verse quoted so far in support of believing Christ in the OT is from the NT and has a legitimate interpretation that protects the perspicuity of the OT. No one has yet to point out a verse in the OT where anyone was told to believe in Christ for salvation as they are in the NT. It would have been anachronistic.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The idea that anyone is saved by the law or covenants of the past is refuted in chapter 4 as Paul establishes that even Abraham was justified by faith, not works.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I too agree whole heartedly with this. Again, it has nothing to do with the issue.
     
  13. Chris Temple

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    Larry:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> To say that they were supposed to believe the person and work of Christ is to say something that is not revealed in the OT. Every verse quoted so far in support of believing Christ in the OT is from the NT and has a legitimate interpretation that protects the perspicuity of the OT. No one has yet to point out a verse in the OT where anyone was told to believe in Christ for salvation as they are in the NT. It would have been anachronistic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


    So you do not believe in progressive revelation and the use of the OT Scriptures by the Apostles to prove that Christ was the Messiah?

    Rom 16:25 ¶ Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
    26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith——
    27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.


    Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
    24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So you do not believe in progressive revelation and the use of the OT Scriptures by the Apostles to prove that Christ was the Messiah?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I absolutely do believe in progressive revelation, Chris. That is my whole point. Progressive revelation recognizes that all was not revealed at the same time. The work of the Messiah was progressively revealed throughout the OT in increasing amounts but never in full. Your position, that people in teh OT were saved by believing in Christ, seems to deny that very point. You cannot believe in what has not yet been revealed. If you read my other posts you will see where I very clearly assert the OT prophecies of Christ the MEssiah. Yet nowhere is it said in the OT that people were saved by believing those prophecies.

    I think one of the major problems of covenant theology is its essential denial of the progressive nature of revelation. To say that the NT must be used to properly understand the OT violates the perspicuity of the OT and the principle of progressive revelation because it says that the OT was not enough for its purpose at the time. I believe that at each stage of revelational history, the revelation given by God was sufficient for his redemptive purposes. The OT must be able to stand on its own or progressive revelation falls by the wayside.

    [ June 24, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  15. Chris Temple

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    Larry:

    I asked my question somewhat tongue-in-cheek, it was late, and I forgot a smiley face. I hope you were not offended.

    We agree on more than we disagree; I am not CT but more New CT, and I believe in progressive revelation.

    Although I do believe that Christ is revealed in the OT as the apostles demonstrated, and they proved Christ from Scripture, and Jesus and the apostles also "used the NT" (creating it, by teaching) to explain the OT w/o doing damage to its perspicuity.

    I also think it is quite clear that the OT saints were given the faith they needed to be justified - faith in God and his promised redemption.
     
  16. Kurt The Baptist

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    The OT saints had there sins pushed foward every year by the animal sacrfice made by the high priest. This went on year after year, and because there sins were not attoned for, they had to wait in paradise until Jesus died on the cross.

    BTW, you cant do anything to get into Heaven, but what you do can keep you out.

    they were judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:13
     
  17. Dr. Bob

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kurtthebaptist:
    BTW, you cant do anything to get into Heaven, but what you do can keep you out.

    " . . they were judged every man according to their works." Rev 20:13
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And then the following verses clarify that no works can save but only are used to justify your condemnation to hell. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>THAT, not my works, is the basis of God's judgment.
     
  18. MARANATHA2000

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    I believe the O.T. saints were all saved the same way we were (assuming all here are saved, hopefully) , by accepting JESUS as their salvation. JESUS was given as HIS birth name, but he is also known as.

    1. THE SEED of the woman
    2. THE MESSIAH
    3. THE BRANCH
    4. I AM
    5. CHRIST
    I am sure there are other names also that directly identify the personage of who, THE ONE we call JESUS is. So accepting salvation in any of these names will get you saved.

    In the O.T. every book there teaches of JESUS CHRIST. HIS BIRTH, HIS DEATH, HIS RESURRECTION, and HIS PROPHETIC RETURN. The whole bible is about JESUS and HIS plan of salvation that HE has provided for man.

    We can read about one of the plaques that GOD placed on Egypt. The blood was placed on the door frames of homes, so that the plaque of death on the first born, would pass by. The blood here was representing the cross. The blood was placed on each side of the door, and on the top and bottom, exactly where CHRIST'S hands, head, and feet were on the cross. This is just one example of how the O.T. is teaching of CHRIST.

    In the O.T. their faith was in MESSIAH. The promised SEED that would take away the sins of the world. They may not have known all the details on how HE was going to accomplish this feat, but they never the less believed, that HE was coming to save them.

    We on the other hand, know how HE accomplished this feat of salvation. By accepting the faithful historic account of the N.T. The O.T. saints believed on the MESSIAH in a future setting. We believe in this same MESSIAH, named JESUS, as a past historical fulfillment of all past O.T. prophecy, and of the prophetic future to come. PEACE, but not yet.


    " THE LORD COMETH "
     
  19. Pastor Larry

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    I notice that your post (like all the others espousing your position) fails to give even one verse of OT Scripture where an OT person is told to believe in JEsus for salvation. Is there a reason why no one is citing Scripture here?
     
  20. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
    I notice that your post (like all the others espousing your position) fails to give even one verse of OT Scripture where an OT person is told to believe in JEsus for salvation. Is there a reason why no one is citing Scripture here?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Larry:

    Jesus himself taught that the OT Scriptures were sufficient for expecting his incarnation and his atonement: was Jesus wrong that the Scriptures spoke of him?

    Luke 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
    26 "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
    27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.

    Gal 3:6-9 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

    [ July 02, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     

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