How were they saved?

Paul answered you, rlvaughn.

But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

'Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world'"

This is a quote from Psalm 19.

What do YOU think Paul was talking about, since he equated these words directly with hearing the Gospel and being saved?

 

I refer you again to what Paul said. What Helen says is not nearly as important. Did Paul indicate that salvation could come that way? What do you think he was talking about in Romans 10?

Let's pay attention to what the Bible says.

When Paul said that God's discussion with Abraham was referring to 'seed' and not 'seeds' what was he talking about, since Abraham had been told to look at the stars?

When Paul says certain qualities as well as the reality of God may be known from creation, what is he talking about?

When Job said he knew his Redeemer lived, how did he know that?

When Agur writes in Proverbs 30 asking the name of God's son -- how does he know God has a son?

What was it the Magoi were looking for in the sky that no one else saw, and why?

If the glory of God (Psalm 19) is not Christ (Hebrews 1), then what is it?

rlvaughn, it really does not matter in the long run, except to my eternal relationship with the Lord, what I believe. It matters what the Bible says.

 

A person is saved through faith in God. The Bible states clearly that God has made Himself AND the Redeemer known from the beginning. Eve was aware of it. Noah knew. Job knew. Abraham knew. David knew. The writers of the Proverbs knew. Isaiah knew. Faith in the Redeemer saves. Those who have had faith in God and in His Redeemer, which is Himself, through the ages, are saved by that faith.

I have been discussing possible ways people knew of the Redeemer. But it is not HOW they knew that saved them, but THAT they knew.

 

The Scripture talks about creation. The Scripture talks about the stars. The Scripture says God named the stars. Their names were known and had meanings. Chinese characters talk about the gospel.

I'm sticking with Scripture. That is why I asked the questions I did. Romans 10, by the way, refers to the fact that 'their' message went out into ALL the world. That indicates more than just Israel.

 

I have to go feed horses and clean stalls, but something occurred to me: why are all of you so afraid of God using whatever He chooses to use to proclaim His message to men? If He so loved the world that He gave His only Son, would He not also so love the world to tell the world about it?

He did. The message came down through Adam, Melchizedek, Noah, Shem, Abraham.

It was written in history. It was written on tablets. It was written in the stars themselves. God never left Himself without a witness. The Bible makes reference to these witnesses. Why are you afraid to examine them?

How many of you who are objecting so strenuously to the fact that the Gospel may have been proclaimed in the heavens or remembered in ancient Chinese characters have actually looked into any of this? Or is this reaction on your parts simply knee-jerk?

You are free to reject it. You do have free will!

But don't reject what you don't know about! I am not talking about rejecting evil -- for we don't want to explore that! But this is something which claims to present the very gospel itself across the skies and in the memories of men in other parts of the world. Isn't that worth looking into?

And isn't it worth praising God that He is so incredible as to truly have made sure EVERY man who ever lived would have enough knowledge of Him to accept or reject the wonderful Promise?

God is truly not willing that one should perish and there is NNE who has not been presented with enough truth, one way or another, to choose to believe or not believe, to follow or not follow.

The wonderful, incredible Good News presented in the Bible is "Look, this is how God did it!" It strips away all the extraneous cultural and historical trappings that men tend to add and shows the simple, clear truth of God's love and care for men and the opportunity men have to respond to Him.

Please think for a moment. Even Gilgamesh presents the story of Noah. In fact, there are some possibly interestng facts there about the building of the Ark that the Bible does not mention. They may or may not be true, but if true, they are interesting! But Gilgamesh adds so much extra material that it can be difficult to know where truth ends and storytelling begins. But the Bible presents the clear, bare facts, against which we can judge what actually happened.

It does that over and over again with everything from creation to redemption.

But that does not mean that God has left Himself without a witness to each man who has ever lived.

 

Thanks. Then let me rephrase the question. Is there enough knowledge in the "gospel in the stars", or a record of the ancient promises in ancient Chinese characters, or through the Motilone legends, Peace Child, & "Eternity in their Hearts" for a person to respond with saving faith?

Ultimately, though, I don't see these things you've mentioned as really addressing Hardsheller's question. All of the things which you mention are things that must be taught, passed down, etc. </font>[/QUOTE]Loved Gina's response, but let me add to it:

I don't know the hearts of men. God does. God knows if a person is responding to what he knows with faith or rejection. I do know that if a person responds to the truth and wants it that God the Father will lead him or her to Jesus who IS the Truth.

Of course the things must be taught and passed down! Why do you think Sodom was destroyed? There were not even ten men left who COULD do that! Only one, and he was a bit suspect! Before the Flood, only Noah. Not enough to pass down the truth unless he was the only patriarch left. So that's what happened.

Abraham was not allowed into the land of the Amalekites because their sin had not reached full measure. There must still have been some righteous men there available to teach the truth so that the others would have a choice. When that no longer was the case, the civilization was destroyed.

It has been passed down. Whether it's the names and meanings of the constellations (did you take a look at the Bowden section of the Gospel in the Stars essay where he shows the names of the stars and constellations?), or the story of the Flood and the rainbow, or the memory of the promise about the seed of the woman -- in fact, in most ancient cultures, the passing down of the ancient truths was considered a holy job, fit for the priests, and they were carefully trained so that they knew each syllable of each word of each story.

Very unlike today.

 

learning something and worshiping it are two entirely different things. But think also that the warning would have been totally unnecessary unless there WERE something going on up there!

If it were only a 'general' way that creation points to a creator then evolution would be fine! But God is VERY detailed about creation in Genesis and about the Gospel in the ancient Mazzaroth, or twelve signs of the Zodiac. Just because they were perverted, in both cases, does not make the original untrue.

 

Then if you are deaf you don't stand a chance, do you?

 

Just for the sake of education, here is part of the material on Gospel in the Stars (names of the zodiac signs are numbered, names of some of the individual stars and star groups in them are lettered):

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1. VIRGO

This is the first constellation of the circuit which the Greeks wrongly renamed Ceres. A virgin (Is. 7:14) holding a branch (Jer. 23:5-6) and an ear of corn. Corn = seed (Latin Spica, the modern name of this bright star. Old name was Arabic Al Zimach seed). Star Zavijaveh means "gloriously beautiful" (Is. 4:2).

(A) Coma. Woman with a child on her lap - Name means Desire of all nations"
Albumazer, an Arabic astronomer of the 8th century, said that the Persians, Chaldeans and Egyptians said this was a young woman (Persian = virgin) on a throne nourishing an infant boy, having a Hebrew name Ihesu which in Greek is called Christos. Shakespeare referred to this as "the good boy in Virgo's lap" (Titus Andronicus Act 4 Sc. 5).
Original Egyptian name Shes-nu = the desired son. Renamed by the Egyptians as Coma Berenice = The hair or wig of Berenice.
The possible connection of this decan with the Star of Bethlehem will be discussed at the end of this section.

(B) Centaur. Half man - half horse. Said to indicate the two natures of Christ (?). Hebrew name is Beza or Al Beze (Arabic) = the despised (Is. 53:3)

(C) Bootes. A man with a spear and sickle (Rev. 14:15-16). Name The Coming One (Ps. 96:13). Arcturus, the name of the bright star in the left knee= the keeper (of those) going up on the heights. Star Nekkar the pierced (Zec. 12:10).

2. LIBRA

Latin = Libra (scales). A pair of scales (Heb. Mozanaim). Arabic - Al Zubena (= purchase or redemption).
Star names; - lower scale - Zuben al Genubi - Arabic (the price which is deficient) (Ps. 62:9) - upper scale - Zuben al Chemali - Arabic (the price that covers). Alternative name - al Gubi heaped up (the value of the redemption). Zuben al Akrab - The price of the conflict.

(A) Crux = the cross

(B) Lupus or Victima (Beast slain or victim)

(C) Corona = A crown

3. SCORPIO A Scorpion.

Cqptic = Isidis (the attack of the enemy)

(A) and (B) Ophiuchus and Serpens. The "strong man" Ophiuchus (serpent-holder) wrestles with the serpent who is reaching for the crown.
The scorpion is stinging the heel of Ophiuchus, who is treading on the
scorpion (Gen. 3:15). In his heel is the star Antares (= wounding).

(C) Hercules - the mighty vanquisher. Foot is placed on the coiled dragons neck. Star Ras al Gethi = the head of him who bruises (Gen. 3:15).

4. SAGITTARIUS - The Archer

Same meaning in several languages (Rev. 6:2). Star Naim = The gracious one.

(A) Lyra - The harp. The name indicates the praise of God. Brightest star is Vega = He shall be exalted. (Ps. 2 1:13)

(B) Ara - the Altar. The burning fire prepared for His enemies.

(C) Draco - The Dragon. The name comes from the Greek = Trodden on (Ps. 91:13). Brightest star Thuban = The subtle. Names of other stars all refer to similar aspects of the dragon.

5. CAPRICORNUS - The Sea Goat

Ancient pictures are half goat, half fish; i.e. the sacrifice and those who it is sacrificed for (Christians use of the fish as a symbol). Second brightest star Deneb al Gedi = the sacrifice cometh. Others have similar meanings.

(A) Sagitta = The Arrow that pierces (Ps. 38:2).

(B) Aquila = Eagle. This has been wounded by the arrow. Names of stars are "wounding piercing" etc.

(C) Delphinus - The Dolphin. The one who rises.

6. AQUARIUS= The Water Bearer (Is. 44:3)

(A) Piscis Australis = The Southern Fish. Star Fom al Haut = the mouth of the fish

(B) Pegasus = The Winged Horse

(C) Cygnus = The Swan. Brightest star Deneb = The Judge or Adige = flying swiftly.

7. PISCES = The Fish.

Star names indicate "the fish (multitudes) of those who will follow"- i.e. The Church (Ps. 115:14).

(A)The Band - (that unites the two fish) (Hos. 11:4)

(B) Andromeda - The Chained Woman (who will be delivered).

(C) Cepheus - The Crowned King.

8. Aries - The Ram or Lamb (John 1:29)

Brightest star El Nath = wounded, slain; (others similar).

(A) Cassiopeia - The Beautiful Enthroned Woman. The captive woman now delivered. Brightest star Schedir (Hebrew) = freed. 2nd star Caph = The Branch (of victory). (Is. 54:1-8, 62:3-5).

(B) Cetus - the sea monster. The enemy bound.

(C) Perseus - The Breaker. Hebrew = Peretz. Greek = Perses (Micah 2:13). Winged feet = coming swiftly. Head he carries wrongly called Medusa by Greeks; Hebrew Rosh Satan = Head of the Adversary.

9. Taurus - The Bull

The Pleiades = The congregation of the judge.

(A) Orion - The coming Prince. Hebrew Oarion = light. He holds a club and the head of "the roaring lion" (1 Pet. 5:8). Betelgeuz = The coming of the branch. Rigol = the foot that crushes. Al Nitak = the wounded one.

(B) Eridanus - The River of the Judge. Star names refer to "flowing" etc.
(Dan. 7:10; Nahum 1:8).

(C) Auriga - The Shepherd (Is. 40:10-11). Hebrew root = shepherd. Star
p Capella (Latin) = she goat.

10. Gemini - The Twins

There is some confusion of the pictures for this constellation in the different languages, but they generally refer to two people. Probably referring to the two natures of Christ and his eventual victory.

(A) Lepus - The Hare (the enemy); trodden under Orion's foot. Star names refer to "the deceiver" etc.

(B) Canis Major (The Dog) or Sirius (The Prince). Sirius is the brightest of all stars. (Is. 9:6).

(C) Canis Minor - The Second Dog. Star Procyon Redeemer.

11. Cancer - The Crab

There are a variety of pictures for this constellation. The meaning is uncertain.

(A) Ursa Minor - The Little Bear. No bears found in any ancient Zodiacs. Confusion may be from Hebrew Dohver Sheepfold, Dovh Bear.

(B) Ursa Major - The Great Bear. Possibly "Sheepfold" as Ursa Minor as Al Naish "assembled together"; Dubhe = "Herd of animals or a flock" etc. Many stars similarly named.

(C) Argo - The Ship. Became part of Greek Argonaut story. Meaning is the "Return of the travellers".

12. Leo - The Lion

The Lion of the tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5). Hebrew name means "Lion hunting down its prey". Name in other languages similar. Denebola Judge who cometh.

(A) Hydra - The Serpent. Hydra means "He is abhorred". Star names similar.

(B) Crater - The Cup. The pouring out of wrath on the wicked (Ps. 75:8).

(C) Corvus - The Raven. Birds of prey devouring the Serpent.

Truly, "Their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world'." Mankind is left with no excuses.

********

Lambert later added a section to the end of our original article. Here is part of it:

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In his book, The Real Meaning Of The Zodiac, Dr. James Kennedy echoes such ideas, pointing out that the ancient signs of the Zodiac record a singular and original revelation--a kind of Gospel in the stars--and that the message of the stars, although converted into astrology after the fall of man, originally recorded the Gospel of God. He writes:

There exists in the writings of virtually all civilized nations a description of the major stars in the heavens-- something which might be called their "Constellations of the Zodiac" or the "Signs of the Zodiac," of which there are twelve. If you go back in time to Rome, or beyond that to Greece, or before that to Egypt, Persia, Assyria, or Babylonia--regardless of how far back you go, there is a remarkable phenomenon: Nearly all nations had the same twelve signs, representing the same twelve things, placed in the same order....The book of Job, which is thought by many to be the oldest book of the Bible, goes back to approximately 2150 B.C., which is 650 years before Moses came upon the scene to write the Pentateuch; over 1,100 years before Homer wrote the Odyssey and the Illiad; and 1,500 years before Thales, the first of the philosophers, was born. In chapter 38, God finally breaks in and speaks to Job and to his false comforters. As He is questioning Job, showing him and his companions their ignorance, God says to them: "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?" (Job 38:31,32).

We see here reference to the constellations of Orion and Pleiades, and the star Arcturus. Also in the book of Job there is reference to Cetus, the Sea Monster, and to Draco, the Great Dragon. I would call your attention to Job 38:32a: "Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season?" Mazzaroth is a Hebrew word which means "The Constellations of the Zodiac." In what may be the oldest book in all of human history, we find that the constellations of the zodiac were already clearly known and understood... Having made it clear that the Bible expressly, explicitly, and repeatedly condemns what is now known as astrology, the fact remains that there was a God-given Gospel [universally acknowledged original revelation] in the stars which lays beyond and behind that which has now been corrupted.

In his book Dr. Kennedy strongly condemns the practice of astrology, while asserting his view that the constellations of the zodiac were likely given by God to the first man as "record-keepers" of the original revelation of God.

The original prophetic significance of the zodiac is summarized by Kennedy thus:

VIRGO: Seed of the Woman, Desire of nations, Man of humiliation, becomes exalted Shepherd and Harvester.

LIBRA: The scales demand a price to be paid, Cross to endure, the Victim slain, a Crown purchased.

SCORPIO: A Conflict, Serpent's coils, Struggle with the Enemy, the Evil Vanquisher.

SAGITTARIUS: The double-natured One triumphs as a Warrior, Pleases the Heavens, Builds fires of punishment, Casts down the Dragon.

CAPRICORNUS: Life comes from death, He's the Arrow of God, Pierced, Springs up again in abundant life.

AQUARIUS: Life-waters from on High, Drinking the heavenly river, Delivering the Good News, Carrying the Cross over the earth.

PISCES: The Redeemer's People multiplied, Supported and led by the Lamb, The Bride is exposed on earth, the Bridegroom is exalted.

ARIES: The Lamb is found worthy, the Bride is made ready, Satan is bound, the Breaker triumphs.

TAURUS: The conquering Ruler comes, the sublime Vanquisher, the great Judgment, the ruling Shepherd.

GEMINI: The Marriage of the Lamb, the Enemy is trodden down, the Prince comes in great Glory.

CANCER: The great Bride, the Church and Israel, are brought safely into the kingdom.

LEO: The Lion King is aroused for rending, the Serpent flees, the Bowl of Wrath is upon him, his Carcass is devoured.

Whatever one makes of Kennedy and other people's zodiac conclusions, one cannot help but be amazed by the Gospel similarities.

If similar assumptions made in The Gods Who Walk Among Us can be accepted--that an original revelation was corrupted after the fall of man and subsequently degenerated into the mythologies of the pagan gods--one would expect to find numerous examples of such corruption from as far back as the beginning of history and within various civilizations around the world. Since the myths behind the gods would thus be "borrowed" ideas, the corrupted texts would be similar to the original truth, and, in that sense, evidence of a particular and original revelation.

In this case a representation of the Greek sun god Helios in an ancient Jewish synagogue might be perceived as pointing back in time to an Original Revelation that was distorted as a result of the Fall of man.

Furthermore, If the distortions of the original revelation were in fact energized by an evil supernaturalism, the goal of the alterations would have been to draw people away from the worship of Yahweh through a close but distorted association with an original truth. According to researchers like Kennedy and Horn we thus find a zodiac in an ancient Jewish synagogue. In Spiritual Warfare--The Invisible Invasion a similar example of original revelation plagiarized by Satan in order to draw men away from the worship of Yahweh is given. Concerning Asclepius, the Greek god of healing, we read:

At the base of Pergamum's hill stood the shrine of Asclepius, equipped with its own library, theater, sleeping chambers used in healing rituals, and long underground tunnels joining various other shrines to which pagans journeyed to receive the healing powers of Apollo's favorite son. The Christian Church considered these mystical powers as demonic, for the worship of Asclepius focused on the image of a serpent, sometimes called Glycon, a figure some historians see as the origin for the modern symbol of healing-a serpent winding about a pole. Asclepius carried the lofty title, the hero god of healing.

In Numbers 21, Moses designed the brazen serpent on a pole that was used of God as an oracle of healing. 743 years later, in 2 Kings 18:4, we find that Israel had began to worship the brazen serpent with offerings and incense. From here the image was adopted into Greek mythology where it became the symbol of Asclepius, the Greek god of healing.

Asclepius was reported to have cured untold numbers from every conceivable disease--even raising a man from the dead. This caused Apollo through his Oracle at Delphi to declare, "Oh Asclepius!, thou who art born a great joy to all mortals, whom lovely Coronis bare to me, the child of love, at rocky Epidaurus." Such a healer was he reported to be, that Pluto, god of Hades, complained to Zeus that hardly anyone was dying anymore, and so Zeus destroyed Asclepius with a thunderbolt. Afterward, Apollo pleaded with Zeus to restore his son and this intercession so moved Zeus that he not only brought Asclepius back to life, but immortalized him as the god of medicine. First at Thessaly, and finally throughout the Greek and Roman world, Asclepius was worshiped as the saviour god of healing.

Greek mythology stated that Asclepius had the power to heal the sick and to bring the dead back to life by drawing blood out from the side of the goddess of justice. Asclepius was symbolized by a serpent winding about a pole, and he was called the great "Physician." The obvious intention of the serpent on a pole in Numbers 21 was to focus mankind on the coming Messiah, the true Great Physician, who would hang upon a pole and would deliver His followers from sickness and from death by the blood that ran out from His side.

Thus we find glaring examples of God's "revelations" plagiarized for demonic purposes. RNU's research eventually uncovered dozens of such examples and summarized them in The Gods Who Walk Among Us.

The worship of the Greek god Helios by ancient Jews refers back to a time when Original Revelation was splintered and truth was fractured and men "changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen" (Romans 1:25). (July 9, 2004)

 

No, they don't hear. They see. Man can learn the Gospel by seeing signs. Sign language, or signs given by God in the heavens. God's Word says the heavens themselves declare His Glory, and His Word also says that the Son is the radiance of God's Glory. If you take a look at what I just copied from the article I co-wrote (which means I can cut and paste it!), you will see the names of some of those stars and constellations. Names known to the ancients, as was the Promise.

Yes, by hearing. Also by seeing, as in reading, which is what we do with the Bible.