How ?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by pinoybaptist, Aug 5, 2004.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Genesis 5:24 says:
    Now, Hebrews 11:5 says:
    How could God take Enoch to Heaven when the following is not present:


    Did Enoch know the Name of Jesus Christ that he should be able to call on him and thus meet the requirements of Acts 16:31 and of Romans 10:12-14 ?
     
  2. npetreley

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    Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. It was as good as done before creation. His salvation is timeless. If/when/how God wants to apply it is up to God.

    Revelation 13:8
    All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


    Also, Jesus said that no one comes to the Father except through Him. What does that mean, exactly? That mankind -- limited by chronological time -- had to wait until He was born, named Jesus, crucified and rose again? That until He did so, nobody could know the actual name of their Savior and call on that name to be saved?

    That's not what it says to me. It says to me the same sort of thing as "No one comes into the house except through the front door." In other words, if it weren't for that door, nobody could get in. Just as if it weren't for Jesus nobody could come to the Father. He is the only way in.

    (Okay, my particular house has a couple other doors too, but you get my point, I hope.)
     
  3. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
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    Enoch pleased God with his faith. Why God singled out Enoch for this special treatment is God's business.

    Hebrews 11:6
    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
     
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Enoch had faith in God. In the OT, Christ was not the content of saving faith. They did not have that revelation.
     
  5. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Pastor Larry;
    I say a big A men for that comment
    May God Bless You;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  6. pinoybaptist

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    Can you explain this a little more, Pastor Larry ?

    Are you saying Enoch inherently had faith in God ?
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    npetreley's answer seems closest and most scriptural.
     
  8. John Gilmore

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    Enoch pleased God because the righteousness of Christ was imputed to him by faith alone. The old testament saints were saved by the faith of Christ, "I know that my Redeemer liveth" Job 19:25.
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    John Gilmore said:

    And so are New Testament saints, Arminian or Calvinist, convert or otherwise. All are justified by the faith of Christ.

    One word. A big difference. God bless you, John.
     
  10. Skandelon

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    The way is through faith. "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness." Christ made it possible for all those with faith to be saved, so no one could be atoned for a part from Christ's work, but they didn't necessarily have to know his name in order to be saved. They were NOT saved through their knowledge of Christ, but through their faith in God's revelation at that point.
     
  11. Skandelon

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    And so are New Testament saints, Arminian or Calvinist, convert or otherwise. All are justified by the faith of Christ.

    One word. A big difference. God bless you, John.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Are you trying to say that Christ enter us and has faith for us and that its not our faith at all. Is that honestly your view because of the word "of" here?
     
  12. pinoybaptist

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    While the Bible says 'without faith it is impossible to please him' we need to ask whose faith pleased God ?

    Is it our faith ? The only way it does is when we put it in Christ and trust Christ's faith to shield our imperfect faith since the only faith that ever pleased God, ever, was Christ's faith.


    From Young's Literal Translation which is listed as a Modern Translation by Crosswalk which is definitely not a KJVO website.

    There is no saint from Abel to John the Beloved, not even Enoch and Elijah who has ever been called Faithful and True. There is only one Faithfull that is full of faith and trust in the Father, and that is Jesus Christ.

    I dare anyone on this board, to name himself faithful and true, or to name anyone other than Christ faithful and true.

    Therefore, the terms 'hid in Christ' and 'accepted in the beloved' become all the more evident when we consider that not only did Jesus Christ fulfill every iota of the Law, he fulfilled the faithfulness that pleases God, and when we trust in His faithfulness, our faith in Him is justified, for 'who is a Rock save our God ?'.

    The Complete Jewish Bible, definitely a Modern Translation says:

     
  13. Skandelon

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    Not many scholars even on your side hold to this do they? I think its pretty common knowledge that "the faith of Christ" simply refers to the faith He began by his life. For example one may say "that guy hold to the the faith of Mohammed" which would be in reference to the Islamic faith. Plus, you would have to ignore the dozens of verses that do refer to faith as being of men. Here are just a few:

    Mat 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
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    Luk 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.
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    Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
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    1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
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    1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain.
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    1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
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    2Cr 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
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    2Cr 10:15 Not boasting of things without [our] measure, [that is], of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
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    Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
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    Phl 2:17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
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    Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love [which ye have] to all the saints,
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    Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
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    1Th 1:8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
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    1Th 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
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    1Th 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.
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    1Th 3:6 But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also [to see] you:
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    1Th 3:7 Therefore, brethren, we were comforted over you in all our affliction and distress by your faith:
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    1Th 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
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    2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
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    Jam 1:3 Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
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    1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
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    1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.
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    1Pe 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
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    2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
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    Luk 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
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    1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
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  14. pinoybaptist

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    Sorry, Skandelon, but none of these verses you cited contradicts what I am trying to say.

    That the faith that God justified is the faith of Christ, and our faith in Christ justifies us insofar as Christ believed God.

    It works the same as righteousness.

    While we, the believers, are told to practice righteousness, that righteousness does not cause us to be eternally saved or justified, but, rather it is the righteousness of Christ in us that pleases God. Apart from Christ, our righteousness means nothing.
    Apart from Christ, our faith means nothing.
     
  15. Johnv

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    No. The Jesus of the NT was not known about in Enoch's time. Neither were the books of Acts or Romans. The Messianic prophecies had not yet been fulfilled, nor had the bulk of Messianic prophecies been penned. For that matter, the OT had not yet been penned at the time of Enoch.
     
  16. pinoybaptist

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    Johnv said:



    Correct. Thank you. So how is it that there are those who argue that one must hear the gospel first, understand it, obey it, before one can be saved ?
     
  17. Skandelon

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    So why does Christ rebuke men for their lack of faith? Shouldn't he rebuke himself?
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    Skandelon said:
    Does He rebuke unbelievers ? He rebukes those who say they believe Him, yet not enough to trust He can do what He says He can do, or follow what He teaches.

    Ever heard of the 'tightrope walker' who walked over the Niagara falls, got a lot of raves from a fan, yet, that fan would not accept the challenge of the tightrope walker to walk back to the other side with that him on the tightrope walker's shoulders ?

    And where and when did He show lack of faith and trust in His Father ?

    At the garden of Gethsemane ?
     
  19. Skandelon

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    Just off the top of my head:

    Rom. 1:18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

    ...Matt 23:37; and

    John 12: 44 And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 "Hewho sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46 "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. (this may not be a rebuke but it is condemnation for their unbelief, same difference)

    I would need to look it up but I also remember Paul rebuking the Jews for their continual refusal to accept his gospel.

    But if they do trust Him isn't that God causing them to trust him or is that part of man? Still doesn't work, does it. [​IMG]


    I meant that he should rebuke himself for their lack of faith because he is the one who is responsible for having their faith for them.
     
  20. npetreley

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    Actually, Jesus does occasionally rebuke some unbelievers for their unbelief. But Jesus tells them plainly why they do not believe. And it has nothing to do with them "deciding of their own free will" not to believe. For example...

    43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

    When people refuse to love the truth and instead pratice deception, they are simply doing the will of their father, the devil. And notice that it's a willing effort -- the desires of your father (the devil) you want to do. They don't even recognize the truth when they hear it. (And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?)

    He who is of God, on the other hand, hears God's words. Anyone who is reborn from above (of the Spirit) and adopted into God's family is of God. They are born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Jesus also, as you mentioned, occasionally rebukes His own for their lack of faith in what Jesus can do in a particular circumstance or situation.
     

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