Hunt , Lee and Grudem

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Aug 4, 2006.

  1. Rippon

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    If you want to get some helpful , unvanished insight into Calvinism -- don't read Dave Hunt .

    If you want to get straight facts about Baptists -- don't look into Francis Nigel Lee's works .

    If you want to really understand translational issues with no axe to grind -- don't check out anything by Wayne Grudem .
     
  2. blackbird

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    Rippon???

    Are you trying to tell us something??? or is there some sort of sublinial message here???:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    Blackbird
     
  3. Rippon

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    Why did I say unvanished insight ? Insight that has not vanished ?

    No , I am not sending any sublinial or even subliminal messages . Perhaps this should have been placed in a Games thread . Who should you not consult for straight info on _____ ?
     
  4. Plain Old Bill

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    Hey Rippon, why don't you just give us a list of which books by which authoers we have your permission to read!
     
  5. Rippon

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    I'm not with the Inquisition squad . Read whatever your free-will dictates . But note that some "authoritative books" are anything but authoritative . However , you can check with me in case you want to save some money .:smilewinkgrin:
     
  6. J.D.

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    I know about Hunt's problem, but can you enlighten me on the problems with Lee and Grudem? That way I dont' have to actually do the research myself. :)
     
    #6 J.D., Aug 7, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2006
  7. Plain Old Bill

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    Would you recommend reading any book by anybody who is not a 5-point Calvinist?
     
  8. Pipedude

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    I thought Treasure Island was pretty cool.

    Grudem is brilliant and he argues his point. If you're educated, read his arguments and judge them. If you aren't, then find someone you respect and believe what he tells you.

    I get very bored with authors who don't believe something. "Mild mannered men speaking to mild mannered men, encouraging them to be more mild mannered." I'd rather read a Calvinist claiming that I'm going to Hell than a wimp who says "both sides are true and the truth lies somewhere in between :love2: "

    And I rather see a genius like Grudem running some translation through the disposal than someone who claims...well, I won't get into that.
     
  9. Andy T.

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    I have benefitted greatly from Grudem's Systematic Theology book. He does argue his positions in the book, but he does so graciously. The book is also well organized and written so that the layman can understand. It also has hymns or choruses at the end of each chapter giving it a worhsipful feel and not just a dry theology book. I highly recommend it.
     
  10. Deacon

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    I recently read The TNIV and the Gender-Neutral Bible Controversy by Wayne Grudem and Vern Poythress and found it to be a well written and thoughful presentation of the gender-neutral issues surrounding the TNIV.

    While I may not fully agree with ALL of his concerns he certainly presents his point well.

    Axe to grind, or firmly convinced about his stand? ...either way you will need to interact with his ideas.

    Guttural reactions or warnings (such as in the opening post) will more often draw me to read an author in order to try to see his side of the issue.
    Book burnings are so passe. :tongue3:

    Rob
     
    #10 Deacon, Aug 8, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 8, 2006
  11. Rippon

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    Book burnings are passe . But a scant few decades ago the RSV was burned a number of times . And many others had inflammatory comments that just about matched the intensity of real flames . These days the TNIV is the counterpart to the old RSV . Many have run after that sensationalistic bandwagon . Folks have checked their brains and honesty and the door and followed pure mob instinct . It reminds me of the KJVO mentality .

    Wayne Grudem has valuable things to say on a number of theological subjects . But he has set a poor example by the way he has conducted himself regarding his trashing of the TNIV . Because of his influence Dr. James Dobson will not allow any viewpoint in support of the TNIV to aired on his program . Believe me , there are serious scholars who support the latter , D.A.Carson is perhaps the most notable .

    World magizine is responsible for much of the hype ( read hot air ) warring against the TNIV . Grudem has not chosen to cool things down . There are dozens of websites warning folks about the sky falling . All those alleged 3,000 plus errors in the TNIV is grist for the rumor mill . It is sickening . Grudem and company is to be blamed for much misrepresentation .

    The HCS Bible ( which I like) and the ESV ( it has its place -- among older English versions ) were brought out to combat what were perceived as the great evils of the TNIV .
     
  12. Rippon

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    I should mention Francis Nigel Lee at this point . He is a very learned man . He has 21 earned degrees . Lee is Professor-Emweritus at Queensland Presbyterian Theological College . He has written with authority on a number of theological subjects . He also needs prayer now with his recovery from prostate surgery .

    But when it comes to Baptists he is extreme as they come in opposition to them . Lee says if they do not repent and baptize their children -- they should be imprisoned by the state . Their children should be given to paedo families and properly baptized and raised rightly .

    He confuses all Baptists with the Anabaptists . But the first London Confession of Faith distanced itself from them deliberately .

    Lee compares Baptists with Mormons , JW's , Christadelphians ( I have met a few -- have you ? ) , Mormons , the SDA etc. He says Baptists are heretics . Therefore we should be called to account by the Civil Magistrate for our Baptistic writings . Is he extreme or what ?
     
  13. Pipedude

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    And what if D. A. Carson is wrong? :eek:

    Dobson is not a translator, so he has to listen carefully, decide, and face the consequences for his decision, as must all who don't know the languages. Mob instinct against it? What do we say about the uneducated people who like the translation? Fact is, mob instinct is just what folks do when they believe something is wrong and harmful.

    And if the TNIV is, indeed, wrong and harmful, then you can hardly fault its detractors (for the most part) for acting as they do. In fact, if it is, indeed, wrong and harmful, YOUR writings here qualify for the kinds of condemnations you've uttered.

    And as for Lee, I see three possibilities regarding his position against Baptists: (1) despite all those degrees, he never got around to reading Baptist history; (2) he's read it, but chooses to lie about it; or (3) he has some arguments for his position that would surprise us. Since the last is the most likely, I probably need to look him up. I might learn something.
     
  14. John of Japan

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    Hear, hear! :thumbs:
     
  15. Rippon

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    There are more worthwhile pursuits than listening to Grudem's garbage disposal .
     
  16. John of Japan

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    He's a brother in Christ, whether you like him or not.
     
  17. Pipedude

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    There are more worthwhile pursuits than sitting at this computer and irritating people, too; but it's still fun. :type:
     
  18. EdSutton

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    Rippon writes:

    C'mon Rippon, although I'm not particularly interested in any 'version debate' for the most part, get yo' facts straight! And I'd add, with a little less pejorative comments.

    You are certainly welcome to "like" (I don't dislike, and sometimes cite/quote the HCSB, lest any misunderstand) the HCSB. But how in the world can you make the comment that the afore mentioned versions of the HCSB and ESV "were brought out to combat what were perceived as the great evils of the TNIV."

    Sounds a little like "theological rope pushing" to me, with the TNIV® © 2001, 2005 and since the HCSB is/was first © 1999, again 2000, 2002, 2003, it obviously predates the one it supposedly was brought out to combat. Obviously a "pre-emptive strike", here??? The ESV likewise is © 2001, so it would appear that some "fast translatin" musta' been done since the year is the same for TNIV and ESV.

    As to the ESV (© 2001) being "among older English versions", every suit I own, some shoes and a third of my shirts and slacks are older than that. And they are not worn out, either! (Granted, as a farmer, I don't wear them a lot.) If 2001 qualifies as "older", my own NKJV (© 1982) must be Reformation vintage, the NASB (first © 1960) started out in the Middle Ages, (although its ten time © renewal through 1995 moves it at least into the mid 19th century, I guess), and I would say poor old Ed Edwards, with his frequent cites of an authentic 1611 spelling of the KJV, Bishop's Bible, and Geneva Bible must be livin' still plumb back in the Stone Age!

    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    FTR, I have not read anything by Hunt, Lee, or Gruden, save for a brief glance a few years ago at a Hunt book.

    Ed
     
    #18 EdSutton, Aug 10, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2006
  19. EdSutton

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    :laugh: :laugh: :type:

    Ed
     
  20. Plain Old Bill

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    Great post Ed Sutton and JoJ.
     

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