Hunting vs Foraging

Please represent what I say corrctly, or don't represent what I say. I equated the satisfying of the "flesh" in those categories.

Again, come back and we'll talk when you quit misrepresenting what I said

 

As a hunter, this is what sinful hunting is to me:

1. Poaching or other illegal activities. There's a reason why there are hunting laws, and it's not just because somebody pulled them out of a hat.

2. Over-hunting or fishing, causing severe population shortages/shrinking/decreases within a species.

3. Trophy hunting with no intention of using the meat. Examples would include killing bobcats for mounts, killing elephants for tusks and leaving the carcass in the field, killing bucks and only cutting its head off and leaving the rest, etc.

4. Wasteful meat usage, such as only stripping the tenderloins out and leaving the rest. Also consider China where they kill bears only for their gall bladders.

5. Unethical shots, such as attempting to hit a deer with a bow at 60 yards, a muzzleloader with open sights at 200 yards, a scoped rifle at 400 yards, totally emptying the entire clip of a semi-automatic as fast as you can pull the trigger, not knowing or being able to aim at the correct spot for the quickest kill, etc.

6. Endangering yourself or others by doing stupid things like hunting while drunk, knowingly trespassing, hunting with a rifle on top of oil tanks, not knowing what's behind where you would be pointing a rifle, etc.

7. "Hunting" caged animals, such as when Troy Gentry of Montgomery Gentry (country group) killed a bear in a cage but shot video footage so that it looked like he was in the wilderness. Many caged deer "hunting" outfits lock up deer in tall cages, sometimes as small as only 3 acres, then people pay big money to get in these cages and for video to be shot so that it looks impressive. Animals are often highly drugged so that they aren't thinking straight and are slower than usual. These animals are also bred just as a prized race horse would be, tinkering with the genetics to produce the largest animal possible, some being sold for tens of thousands of dollars. They are constantly fed whatever it takes to make their racks the biggest.

 

I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person who is apparently taking your comments totally the wrong way. Otherwise this thread wouldn't continue to string out. Maybe you should re-evaluate the way that you're coming across.

 

I agree with your above list. I guess my problem is with motive...what "thrill" is being had, that of killing, or that of the hunt itself? As someone pointed out prior, if it's the hunt itself, would it still be as thrilling if a camera was taken instead of a gun? If not, why not? Here's where motive can get sticky...

 

Hunting is almost a requirement for my pastorate, so I began this year. I have to say that I enjoy both, the time outdoors, and the challenge (yes, challenge) in bringing down the animal. As much as their may be a thrill in sighting in the big buck and taking a great shot, there is a somberness to the kill itself.

I have seen a lot of aspects about hunting I never considered before I did it. One is the ministry opportunity both in building relationships, but also in learning a great deal about life and death, power, responsibility, etc. Also, there is just something there that connects us to our history and the world around us. I eat meat all the time that I have bought at the store or McDonalds, but it was odd to sit down to some fried deer tenderloin or some venison stew and think, "I saw this animal in the wild, I killed it, I gutted it, I cleaned it, I butchured it, I cooked it, I ate it." I know its not for everyone, but I have enjoyed the experience, and while I agree with the list above, I do not see any biblical reason why ethical hunting is a problem.

We can talk all about the "thrill" and I would ask, why choose a choice steak over a tofu hot dog? They may both be nutritious but we enjoy (or are thirlled) by one over another. I could fill my freezer at the grocery store or I can hunt deer...I enjoy the hunt.

 

I simply must respectfully disagree and say that I think this is a bunch of baloney, to put it nicely.

On a related note... I have some deer chili simmering in the crock pot right this moment. Bubble bubble. Mmmmmm boy. I'm so excit.... oh nevermind.

 

Why? Because you say so? I don't think hunting for sport is immoral and I haven't heard any other hunters agree.

 

It all depends on your definition of "sport". I've yet to hear a good solid definition of that term for the sake of this conversation. The definition keeps shifting.

1. If your definition of "sport" falls within that list I posted or something similar... sure, I agree, and I'm not even reluctant about it.

2. If your definition of "sport" applies to anybody who gets a rush when they get a nice buck in the crosshairs... I think you're crazy.

 

You said this earlier in the thread, I think even after just one verse was posted, the first one below, and their comments were not leaning against hunting whatsoever. So, I just skimmed every page of this thread. I may have missed something, but the following scriptures are all I've found, and I provided two of them.

The first one was by a pro-hunter, explaining it as "a hunter's life verse". The second was by "mnw" which also posted comments that I agree with and were not against hunting. The third I posted. The fourth was posted by somebody who was obviously tired of all the bickering, and the last one came from me too, but the last two have nothing to do with hunting, only judging.

So, obviously I'm missing something... where are all the scriptures posted by the people who lean against hunting for sport that support their ideas? I'll pay attention to them if I could just find them. Please point them out.



Hunting/animal oriented:

Acts 10:13 "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."


Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel. "


"The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting: but the substance of a diligent man is precious."
-- Proverbs 12:27


------------
Judgmental oriented:

Romans14: 4. Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Romans14: 12. So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"
-- Matthew 7:3

 

OF COURSE IT'S THE CLIMAX!!! I think it's rather impossible for it to not be the climax! I'm not saying it's not! I've said multiple times you get a rush when you get an animal in the crosshairs. I think it would be extremely rare for any hunter to be able to truthfully say that it's not the actual climax. HOWEVER, as another guy pointed out, there is a somberness in the actual death process, but the moment right before and leading up to the shot, sure that's the climax. But, I believe that even though this is the case, it's not necessary bad or sinful. There is a HUGE difference in saying that the moment leading up to the shot is the climax, and saying that you enjoy the death process.

There's a difference in the mentalities of what people enjoy. Some people, a very few minority, sure, that's all they want... they go out just to shoot something, and that's pretty much the end of it, they often don't even bother messing with the meat to "justify" their actions, they leave it to rot. Most people like this will fall into one of the categories of immoral hunting practices that I listed earlier. But, most hunters are not like this. For the ones that are, I am not taking up for them whatsoever, I'm just as against it as you. I have unfortunately had to hunt on the farm that's right next to another farm who has leased out land to out of state people. Now, let me tell you something, when you get a whole bunch of big city northerners come down for a weekend of hunting, you see an awful lot of crazy mess. I've seen tons of stuff that I don't agree with whatsoever.

As for the majority of the rest of ethical hunters, even though that moment is the climax, that doesn't mean that the rest of the experience is just a necessary waste of time. Just because I say that I enjoy the entire experience doesn't change the fact that the moment of the shot being the climax. But, most guys like scouting out, hanging out in the field, seeing the clear sky at 4 AM, etc, etc, etc, then also enjoying the fruits of their labor when they get to eat the meat. IT'S THE ENTIRE EXPERIENCE!

But yeah, this attitude is exactly what I've thought you've been been thinking all along... I actually agree with many attitudes about hunting/killing for the fun of it that were listed in this thread, but to say that it's wrong and sinful if you get a rush at the moment of the shot making it the climax... I'm not buying it. I don't agree at all. In my opinion, that's saying ever hunter on earth is wrong and their actions are sinful. I simply don't think it's possible to hunt and not get a rush at the moment of the shot.

Biggest difference is that if you had an extremely nice deer in a pen and asked somebody if they wanted to kill it... the immoral sinful guy only interested in satisfying their bloodlust would take you up on it in an instant... but the real hunter would decline.

 

Yes, we have all tried to explain why we enjoy hunting and that it is not just to kill and animal. Everything we have said we enjoy is SPORT HUNTING. Granted, I think most of us prefer to stick to commonly accepted views of ethical hunting, but it is still sport hunting. No one has said that they hunted for necessity, but has given multiple reasons for enjoying the hunt.

There has been scripture given to support hunting. I see that Corndoggy has been kind enough to refresh your memory. Hunting for sport is not directly mentioned, for or against, in scripture even though it did exist at the time.

It seems that you have come up with your own strange definition of sport hunting and have declared it to be immoral. The hunters here have been trying to get you to understand what sport hunting actually is, but none have agreed that sport hunting is immoral.

Unethical sport hunting? Yes, we've agreed that is immoral, but there are commonly accepted ethical guidelines for sport hunting.

 

And you are wrong there as well. There are reasons other than food that an animal can be killed "for sport" very much in the vein of being good stewards of our domain.

Overpopulation can threaten not only crops and cars but deer populations themselves. Some animals can be hunted for skins. Some animals need to be killed just to keep an equitable balance. Coyotes for example. Turkeys are another example. They tend to reproduce quickly and drive other ground nesting birds out.

If someone is killing just for the "fun" of being cruel or seeing something suffer then, yes, they have a problem. But there are a number of good reasons and humane means of enjoying the sport of hunting that don't always involve the game being food.

 

Yes. Conservation. Stewardship.

Yes.

I disagree. This type of hunting can be a valuable population control tool. I live in an area where the state has allowed nuisance hunts in the summer... and require that deer be left laying where they were shot.

If an animal is endangered then like elephants in Africa then it is ridiculous to let wealthy "hunters" just kill them. However, when the population was healthy, the ivory trade was a legitimate business that "harvested" a resource. It was abused but that doesn't mean the whole thing was wrong. The Bible certainly doesn't condemn the ivory trade under Solomon.

That again is a matter of circumstances.

I have a 7 mm WSM. It is probably as deadly at that range as a 223 or 243 are at 150.

I don't take shots that far away though unless I have something very stable to shoot from and alot of time.

Boy don't I wish everyone was this prudent. Some folks sound like machine guns... if I couldn't shoot any better than that (and I am NOT a great shot), I wouldn't get in the woods for fear of hurting someone.

 

I find no difficulty at all saying that the rush right before the kill isn't the reason, and I'll explain. The problem is that it's simply not worth it if that's the goal!

I mean, if I want an adrenaline rush, I'll go out and ride my four wheeler crazy fast, and I do. I've got mountain bikes for the same reason. I go wakeboarding. I do mild rock climbing. We're planning a snowboarding trip to Colorado this winter. All kinds of stuff like that. Believe me, that is much easier and much longer lasting and more powerful than getting a rush when you get an animal in the scope. I can go do that any time I want, all year round, for hours at a time, and have crazy thrills and surges of adrenaline that entire time.

Now, hunting takes time. Days at the very minimum. Weeks. Some folks invest months if you count all the time scouting. Often times you are miserable, and some years it's actually most of the time. It usually takes more money than what most people want to admit. Yet after all that, you're still not guaranteed that you'll see anything at all, much less a buck, much less a nice one. Yet, we do it anyway. I pass up chances to do highly thrilling things to go hunting. Instead of sitting in a tree stand freezing my butt off, I could be dodging trees at 30 mph on my bike or quad. I can be at the local off-road park for quad riding and can be at anywhere in over 1,000 miles of trails for mountain biking faster than I can get to where I go hunting.

So, with all that in mind, are you still so narrow minded that you believe that I would go through all that just for the chance of a 10 second rush when I get an animal in the crosshairs? HA! I wouldn't bother. I've got much better thrill-generating activities in my arsenal than to have to bother with all the extra baggage involved with hunting if that were the case. I still say that this moment is the climax, but that feeling is not the goal, it's not worth it. We do it for the satisfying feeling of the entire experience, not the 10 second rush of adrenaline. I've got better things to do with my time if that were the case.

 

I've never thought him to be cute, but maybe that's just me. He is one of the finest preachers in our association, so I hope he keeps to his business behind the pulpit. Interstingly enough in the verse cited, peter is told to kill and eat, but we are given no indication that Peter is hungry and cannot eat another way...of course, there's no indication he is to kill and eat for sport, either...although the killing of wild game (even to eat) was sport, even in those days.

Your former conclusion, that the hunters here have reluctantly admitted that sport hunting is immoral is hardly valid as it isn't even true. Show me one hunter on this thread that has said this. You lie and then try to say your lie remains valid?

Your problem is that you know very little of sport hunting. You don't understand it, so you make assumptions that are no where near the truth. Most hunting trips do not result in a kill. Most tags go unfilled. Is there a rush in the kill...perhaps the shooting, there is no rush from watching an animal die, but as a non-hunter, I do not expect you to understand the difference there.

From what I have seen in this thread, many non-hunters here have come to believe that most sport hunting involves what the hunters here would call unethical (and in many cases illegal hunting). There is ethical sport hunting. There are many benefits to it. There is no prohibition to it in the Bible, even though it did exist. If your conclusion is to now become that you think sport hunting is immoral, then I advise you not to do it, but barring any biblical prohibition, please do not put words in my mouth and then claim they are valid because you put them there.