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Hyper-calvinism

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by shilo, Oct 22, 2002.

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  1. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    This is untrue. Please go to the Evangelism & Missions section, where you will find a thread entitled "DORT: Predestination & Evangelism." [​IMG]
     
    #21 Rev. G, Oct 23, 2002
  2. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    Accusations once again without explination. willing to point fingers but unwilling to shed light.

    The Counter Remonstrance

    1. As in Adam the whole human race, created in the image of GOd, has with Adam fallen in to sin and thus become so corrupt that all men are concieved and born in sin and thos are by nature children of wrath, lying dead in their trespasses so that there is within them no more power to convert themselves truely into God and to believe in Christ than a corps has the power to raise itself from the dead;so God draws out of this condemnation and delivers a certain number of men who in his eternal and immutable counsel he has cosen out of mere grace, according to the good pleasure ofhis will, unto salvation in Christ, Passing by the others in his judgement and leaving them in there sins.

    Westminister Confessions of faith

    III. By the decree of god, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained uto everlasting death

    Connons of Dort

    Election is the unchangeable purpose of God whereby before the foundation of the world he hath out of mere grace according to the sovereign good pleasure of his own will chosen from the whole human race which had fallen through their own fault from their primitive state of rectitude, into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ whom he from eternity appointed the Mediator and head of the elect.
     
    #22 shilo, Oct 23, 2002
  3. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Dort and the WCF are Calvinistic, not hyper-Calvinistic. Hyper-Calvinism has to do with denying human responsibility, denying the duty of all to trust Christ and repent of their sins, and the duty of the Church to do the work of evangelism.
     
    #23 Rev. G, Oct 23, 2002
  4. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    BTW, you should post the canons of Dort that deal with individual responsibility and the duty of the Church to evangelize.
     
    #24 Rev. G, Oct 23, 2002
  5. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    The Lambeth Articles

    1. God from eternity has predestinated certain men unto life; certain men he hath reprobated

    This is what I have come to see from the Calvinist..when the true position is finally exposed ( as it has been done many times) he will claim that he is being misrepresented. When that doesn't work they say well your talking about Hyper Calvinism as if to say that there is some big difference..

    Yet we can't seem to get to the Bottom of what that "BIG" difference is..since the Calvinist themselves can't tell us like ken..he goes back to claim that we are unlearned.. circular reasoning.

    So really would it not just be a whole lot easier to admit there is no difference and that we anti calvinist really do understand the Clavinist position??
     
    #25 shilo, Oct 23, 2002
  6. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    so God draws out of this condemnation and delivers a certain number of men who in his eternal and immutable counsel he has cosen out of mere grace, according to the good pleasure ofhis will, unto salvation in Christ, Passing by the others in his judgement and leaving them in there sins.

    and others foreordained uto everlasting death

    God from eternity has predestinated certain men unto life; certain men he hath reprobated

    According to the above statement of what a hyper-calvinist is..I would say the Dort, And the WCF and the Lambeth articles fit the discription pretty well.
     
    #26 shilo, Oct 23, 2002
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Let me be honest, Shilo. I do not know how to convince you that despite agreement on T.U.L.I.P. there are differences between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. I have given a link earlier in this thread that explains what Hyper-Calvinism is. What else can I do for you? :confused:

    Do you need to ask myself and other Calvinists questions to show these differences? If so, please do so. Remember that double predestination is not a distinguishing characteristic between the two. There are Calvinists and Hyper-Calvinists that are double predestinationists. That is not where the differences arise. If you will not accept that premise, then you will never see the difference between the two, I fear.

    Ask honest questions, I'll give you honest answers. Okay? [​IMG]

    [ October 23, 2002, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
    #27 KenH, Oct 23, 2002
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I'll start here. [​IMG]

    1)I believe the gospel call applies to all who hear the gospel preached.
    2)I believe that every person must believe in order to be saved.
    3)I believe in the free offer of the gospel and that God universally shows mercy to human beings.
    4)I believe in the doctrine of common grace - God gives good things to both the saved and unsaved.
    5)In line with number 4 I believe that God loves all of His creation. I believe He loves those who repent and believe in a salvational way and that He does not love those who refuse to repent and believe in the same way as those.
     
    #28 KenH, Oct 23, 2002
  9. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    To be fair..I will..

    II. Of the death of Christ and the redemption of men thereby

    More over the promise of the gospel is that whosoever beleiveth in Christ crucified, shall not perish but have everlasting life..

    Okay fine but they just said that Election is unchangeable And all men can't believe because only a certain number have been selected by God For salvation.

    that is a contradiction.

    "This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of his good pleasure sends the gospel"

    Okay I agree with all of that..however..that is in direct contradiction to their statement on the "select number chosen by God" and if God Has predestinated those individuals..Something that is foreordained or Predestinated is going to happen NO MATTER WHAT. so this bring us back to the debate about prayer and evangelism..they contradict.
     
    #29 shilo, Oct 23, 2002
  10. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    More proof that ya'll don't know the theological difference between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism. What ya'll want to do is lump the two systems together, batter on Hyper-Calvinist(which I would agree with on certain items) while calling it Calvinism. And that is intellectually and theologically dishonest and ya'll ought to be ashamed of yourselves. It would be like Calvinists lumping non-Calvinists with Pelagians and calling all non-Calvinists Pelagians.

    Frankly, until the Axis of Anti-Calvinism(I love that phrase [​IMG] ) does some studying and learns what Calvinism is and what Hyper-Calvinism is ya'll ought to retire from this debate on Hyper-Calvinism and come back when ya'll can deal honestly and forthrightly with the differences between Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism.

    Then again, ya'll can continue on your present path and continue to appear thelogically silly. [​IMG]     </font>[/QUOTE]Always complaining. No body understands us. Why should we get involved in inter theological squabbles. They all call themselves Calvinist. Perhaps you should retire untill you get your own squabbles worked out.

    I know more about what you believe than you know about what i believe.

    [ October 23, 2002, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
    #30 ForumChaplain, Oct 23, 2002
  11. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    No, it is an antinomy.
     
    #31 Rev. G, Oct 23, 2002
  12. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Chappie:

    I was raised a "5-point Arminian," then for a time was a "Whiskey Calvinist" - I only took 1/5 of it ("once saved always saved"). I was in that that system of belief for nearly twenty years. I know about it.

    Rev. G
     
    #32 Rev. G, Oct 23, 2002
  13. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    I am a Primitive Baptist, and the religious world considers Primitive Baptists "Hyper-Calvinists." No, I do not believe the preaching of the gospel is an "offer." Show me in the Scriptures where the gospel was ever presented as an offer by Jesus Christ or the apostles.

    Billy Graham -

    "We are selling the greatest product on earth. Why shouldn’t we promote it as effectively as we promote a bar of soap?" (Dallas Times Herald, April 9, 1963, page 4)
     
    #33 Primitive Baptist, Oct 23, 2002
  14. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    PB:

    Do you believe that the Gospel is to be proclaimed to all people, and that they are responsible (have the "duty") to place their faith in Christ and repent of their sins?

    Rev. G
     
    #34 Rev. G, Oct 23, 2002
  15. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    Main Entry: an·tin·o·my
    Pronunciation: an-'ti-n&-mE
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural -mies
    Etymology: German Antinomie, from Latin antinomia conflict of laws, from Greek, from anti- + nomos law -- more at NIMBLE
    Date: 1592
    1 : a contradiction between two apparently equally valid principles or between inferences correctly drawn from such principles

    Like I said Rev. G. a contridiction! The two don't mix!
     
    #35 shilo, Oct 23, 2002
  16. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    An APPARENT contradiction. Go back and check. If not antinomy, then paradox.

    an·tin·o·my Pronunciation Key (n-tn-m)
    n. pl. an·tin·o·mies
    Contradiction or opposition, especially between two laws or rules.
    A contradiction between principles or conclusions that seem equally necessary and reasonable; a paradox.

    [Latin antinomia, from Greek antinomi : anti-, anti- + nomos, law; see nem- in Indo-European Roots.]

    [ October 24, 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]
     
    #36 Rev. G, Oct 24, 2002
  17. shilo

    shilo New Member

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    Just to start with..Rev. 22:17

    And him that is a thirst come..(An offer to come)

    And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.. (offer agin)

    Teh water of life is offered if you want it come and get it.

    If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink

    another offer for people to come

    He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water..

    Come unto me all ye that are heavy All ye that labour and are heavy laden and i will give you rest.

    Another offer for people to go to jesus..
     
    #37 shilo, Oct 24, 2002
  18. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    #38 russell55, Oct 24, 2002
  19. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    Rev. 22:17 is not the gospel. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The gospel is the proclamation that Christ hath visited and redeemed His people. There is a vital difference in the gospel and the proclamation of it. When Rev. 22:17 is addressed to those who are "athirst." It is not to the world. Likewise, Jesus said, "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden." Well, that's right. Those are to particular people, but not the world in general. I do not see how the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is an invitation. Look at it this way. The gospel is "good news." When you read the newspaper, it proclaims, or tells, of events that have already happened. On 9/11, the newspapers did not say, "Now, if you'll accept the fact that the World Trade Center has collapsed, then it will collapse. That is how most people proclaim the gospel. What they are doing is putting out a "proposal." The gospel is not that. It is good news, and just that.
     
    #39 Primitive Baptist, Oct 24, 2002
  20. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Primitive Baptist: From your most recent post here I think I can tell, but I'll go ahead and ask again anyway...

    Well?
     
    #40 Rev. G, Oct 24, 2002
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